Comments on: KSR v. Teleflex: Rethinking Obviousness https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html America's leading patent law blog Tue, 13 Jul 2021 21:13:13 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.9.18 By: MaxDrei https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162514 Tue, 05 Sep 2006 15:09:53 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162514 I agree with the previous writer that what was or was not obvious at the date of the claim is a question of fact, not law. That’s what the Supreme Court of Germany used to say. But now the BGH has decided that it is a question of law, to be reviewed on appeal. The only explanation I can find is political. The BGH is making a competitive bid within Europe to distinguish its civil law jurisdiction (court plays the role of PHOSITA) from London’s common law jurisdiction. It is announcing: If you are the sort of litigant who wants to have a second bite at the apple (first instance as dress rehearsal for the main action on appeal), Germany is the jurisdiction for you.

Isn’t forum-shopping wonderful, and isn’t Europe a worthwhile place to study, when contemplating what directions US patent law should take?

]]>
By: Luke Ueda-Sarson https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162513 Mon, 04 Sep 2006 03:36:01 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162513 John Darling: “To one of the previous posters, obviousness is not a question of fact. It is a question of law determined by analyzing findings of fact”.

This is a large part of the problem with obviousness in the US. Elsewhere, obviousness is clearly considered to be a question of fact, and is even routinely described as a “jury question” despite not being determined in front of a jury…

An admission that this is so, as some of the CAFC judges are clearly desirous, might go some way to helping the SCOTUS craft an appropriate test.

Luke Ueda-Sarson

]]>
By: Moshe https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162512 Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:48:39 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162512 It seems that if the Supreme court raises the bar on obviousness, then prosecutors will be forced to write even MORE obfuscated and even LONGER specs. After all, if things are written clearly and succinctly, they MUST be obvious.

The more obfuscated things are, the more difficult it will be to use hindsight and invalidate a patent. Thus, there will be a trend to use more techno-jargon and legalese.
If things are laid out clearly, then any non-scientist/non-engineer, even the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, will get a good understanding of the invention, and conclude that it is obvious.

This is a continuation of a trend that began about 5-10 years ago – with newer patents, someone who wants to learn the teachings of the patent can not just look up the “object of the invention” and figure out, within 90 seconds, what the patent is about (like you can with many older issued patents).

Of course, everybody would agree this is bad trend – i.e. the public gets denied a clear disclosure.

Personally, as a prosecutor, I am bound to protect the interests of my client. If writing an obfuscated spec reduces the chances of some judge deciding that my client’s invention is obvious, then so be it.

GENERAL OBSERVATION (law of unintended consequences) – much of the weakening of patents – due to (A) past and current events, such as court decisions where the court reads limitations and inventor observations of the spec into the claims (today, when we write specs, anything we say can and will be used against us) as well as (B) possible future events (for example, proposals to eliminating the best mode requirement, to raise the bar on obviousness) has lead, and will lead, to worse disclosures for the public.

Another example is the intentional obfuscation that will become common if the courts decide that business methods are not patentable subject- matter (or if they “raise the bar” for patentability of business methods). Then, prosecutors like me, will be forced to rephrase business method claims as “technical” computer (or other) claims (and, concomitantly, to write the spec differently). The result will also be a disclosure that is more difficult to comprehend.

Thus, the spec will technically be “enabling” but will be a much less useful disclosure.

ANOTHER MUSING – if the dreaded “proposed rules” are implemented, it will be interesting how the “overlapping specifications filed at the same time” issue plays out. I foresee a scenario where an Applicant can write duplicate specs, where each spec is obfuscated differently. This would allow the Applicant to claim that the specs do not overlap to get a shot at more “continuations” and/or a chance to have more claims examined. I admit this scenario is a little far-fetched and crazy, but so are the proposed rules.

ANOTHER DETRIMENTAL EFFECT – only the rich corporations will have the budget to pay for patent practitioners (like me) to obfuscate their patent application.

]]>
By: Joyce Lauer https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162511 Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:54:32 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162511 Dennis et al:

Why are all of submitted documents in support of the petitioner, or neutral? None of the documents with links listed above is in opposition to the petition.

The SC needs to hear both sides of the story. As noted, the SC has little knowledge of patents and zero knowledge of engineering or science.

A plea: would some of the experienced clear thinkers who posted comments above do so in a way that those comments come to the attention of the SC? If it is too late to participate in the court filings, then send a (jointly authored) op-ed piece to BOTH the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times.

POINT 2: Tom stated:
“The deep difficulty here is that the very framing of the problem may indeed be the most significant leap of creative intuition in the invention.”

The inventive step is indeed often identification of a problem, or defining a problem in a new way. Once the problem is identified, a solution may be evident. But if the inventor had not identified the problem, no solution would ever be suggested by anyone.

This “identification of the problem” type of invention is common and important, and this type may be the most threatened by abandonment of the TSM test. It will become extremely difficult to obtain patents for things that truly seem non-O.

]]>
By: Paul Cole https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162510 Wed, 30 Aug 2006 04:52:14 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162510 I have a copy of Peter Woit’s book “Not Even Wrong” which contains a criticism of string theory. The title, of course, is taken from the famous remark by Wolfgang Pauli about work that is in so undeveloped a state that it cannot be used to make a testable prediction.

So if we apply the Pauli approach to sets of features brought together in a claim, we might classify them as:

(a) An inventive combination;
(b) An obvious combination; and
(c) Not even a combination.

]]>
By: Shoji Hamada https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162509 Tue, 29 Aug 2006 08:41:44 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162509 Thank you, Mr. Crouch, for the detailed and useful analysis on nonobviousness in US jurisprudence. And, also thanks in advance for my referring to your column in my blog. link to patent-japan.blogspot.com

]]>
By: Duncan Bucknell https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162508 Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:56:45 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162508 John – thanks for picking up my loose language.

I wasn’t saying that we should remove all tests, only that a single test shouldn’t be applied slavishly to every situation.

]]>
By: Tom Barniak Jr. https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162507 Mon, 28 Aug 2006 13:18:02 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162507 Thanks for clarifying -goes to show how the obvious can sometimes be viewed in a relative and ambiguous manner if not instructed or directed- better send all patent examiners and their overseers to the same school of retooled thought if the test for finding if it is there changes.

]]>
By: Michael Slonecker https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162506 Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:38:51 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162506 Actually, my reference to the “bull” case could be aptly characterized by a claim such as:

A device for removing the “privates” of those “intellectuals” who proffer opinions ad nauseum on the construction of the patent laws, said device consisting of….

It is difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate utility under 101 for an invention that has no possible use…..

I think you get my drift.

]]>
By: John Darling https://patentlyo.com/jobs/2006/08/ksr_v_teleflex_-4.html#comment-162505 Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:18:35 +0000 http://tp2wp_test/?p=3505#comment-162505 My advice to the Supreme Court is beware the “It’s so obvious nobody ever bothered to disclose it, let alone write it down anywhere” argument. That’s a slippery slope you don’t want to set foot on.

As a native of New London, I must sadly agree with Gideon. The assault on individual property, both real and intellectual, continues unabated. I guess many won’t be too upset by that. Until it’s their property under attack.

To one of the previous posters, obviousness is not a question of fact. It is a question of law determined by analyzing findings of fact. The vast majority of examiners do not perform even a semblance of analyis, let alone fact finding, and simply conclude that an invention is obvious because they have found a plurality of references that include all the claim limitations (if they even manage that). Without some objective requirement for combining the references, what you have is the prevailing standard of obviousness in the examining corps: it’s obvious because I say so.

Reading arguments about obviousness by law professors is a nice break from prosecuting patent applications, but I really should get back to getting my clients’ applications allowed before their views actually become binding precedent.

]]>