Reexamined Patent Still Obvious According to the Court

by Dennis Crouch

Senju v. Lupin (Fed. Cir. 2015)

In a split decision, the Federal Circuit has affirmed a district court judgment that Senju’sU.S. Patent No. 6,333,045 is invalid as obvious. The patent covers an eye-drop formulation that is mixture gatifloxacin and EDTA (sold as Zymar) and has an interesting litigation history. In particular, this case represents the fourth time that the patent has been asserted in a lawsuit before Judge Sue Robinson (D.Del.). That history includes a prior finding by Judge Robinson that the claims were invalid as obvious. Following that original obviousness decision, Senju successfully shepherded the claims through an ex parte reexamination.  In that process, the PTO confirmed the patentability of the claims once amended to include a specified concentrations of the aforementioned ingredients (e.g., “about 0.3 to about 0.8 w/v%” of gatifloxacin and “about 0.01 w/v%” of EDTA).  Following reexamination, the court blocked Senju from asserting the reexamined claims against the same party (Apotex) who won the first obviousness decision — finding that claim to be precluded. However, the court did allow assertion of the new claims against new parties – here Lupin and Hi-Tech Pharma.  However, after considering the same prior art as the USPTO, Judge Robinson found the revised claims still obvious based upon -again – the same prior art.

On appeal, the Federal Circuit affirms – holding that the district court’s conclusion of obviousness was correct. In the process the Federal Circuit appeared to give no deference to the USPTO reexamination determinations other than to require clear and convincing proof of the factual underpinnings of the obviousness determination. See Sciele Pharma Inc. v. Lupin Ltd., 684 F.3d 1253, 1260 (Fed. Cir. 2012) (“Whether a reference was previously considered by the PTO, the burden is the same: clear and convincing evidence of invalidity.”). The appellate court did agree that the amendments during reexamination did refresh the patent claims so as to reestablish the presumption of validity in the face of the prior invalidity ruling.

Regarding the added concentration limitation of “0.01 w/v% EDTA,” the two sides fought over whether that concentration level was suggested by the prior art studies.  The court writes:

At bottom, the district court’s analysis rests largely on a determination that Lupin’s experts were more credible than Senju’s experts. Based on this determination, the district court found that [the Prior Art] Grass 1988-I, along with the other cited references, taught that 0.01 w/v% EDTA would be effective to increase corneal permeability. On the evidence before us, that determination by the district court falls well within the wide discretion the court has to weigh expert credibility. Ordinarily, and absent compelling reason otherwise, an appellate court defers to such credibility determinations.

With that (and some further analysis), the court affirmed the obviousness finding.

= = = = =

Judge Plager drafted the majority opinion that was joined by Judge Moore.  Writing in  dissent, Judge Newman argued that the courts should “give deference” to the PTO’s review of the narrowed claim scope and its conclusions regarding the unexpected results associated with the newly narrowed claims.  Judge Newman further writes:

The prior art is crowded. . . . However, no combination of prior art references shows or suggests the use of very low concentrations of EDTA to enhance the corneal permeability of antibiotic formulations of gatifloxacin, or of any other quinolone. . . . The panel majority relies on the unsupported opinion of Lupin’s expert witness, and gives that unsupported opinion greater weight than the experimental data.

= = = = =

Although PTO reexamination decisions are not given deference in this type of third-party challenge, there are some reasons to think that IPR/PGR decisions should be given deference under the APA.  However, it is unlikely that the Federal Circuit would come to that conclusion without first being led by either Congress or the Supreme Court.

116 thoughts on “Reexamined Patent Still Obvious According to the Court

  1. 13

    US 6,795,918 is today’s atrocity for a dozen odd tech companies to defend, thus increasing costs and decreasing actual innovation for rest of us. Firewall software whose “novelty” is that a user can’t configure it. Which flavor of obviousness do we have here?

  2. 12

    Ned, since your Fed. Cir. pending legal challenge re the unconstitutionality of IPRs* also must apply to all reexaminations rendered since the option of de novo D.C. review was removed, let us know when your oral argument date, if any, is provided?

    *MCM Portfolio Company v. Hewlett Packard Company Fed. Cir. Case No. 15-1091 filed 1/21/15.

    1. 12.2

      just fyi:

      Halo Electronics v. Pulse Electronics
      Petition for en banc rehearing denied

      O’Malley’s dissent (joined by Hughes):

      [T]he structure for assessing willfulness set forth in Bard and our old § 285 Brooks Furniture test were both predicated on our interpretation of the Supreme Court’s decision in Professional Real Estate Investors, Inc. v. Columbia Pictures Industries, Inc. (“PRE”), 508 U.S. 49 (1993), which we believed required a two-step objective/subjective inquiry before either enhanced damages or attorneys’ fees could be awarded. We have gone so far, moreover, to require that an evidentiary wall be erected between the objective and subjective portions of the inquiry. We preclude considerations of subjective bad faith—no matter how egregious—from informing our inquiry of the objective baselessness of a claim and preclude the weakness a claim or defense from being indicative of a parties’ subjective bad faith….

      We now know that the artificial and awkward construct we had established for § 285 claims is not appropriate. We should assess whether the same is true with respect to the structure we continue to employ under § 284.

      Write up re the original case and the petition here: link to patentlyo.com

    2. 12.3

      Paul, will do.

      FYI, the HP brief was filed today and is available thru Pacer. The Director has to file a corrected brief. I will let you know when that too is available.

      The HP Brief did not raise de novo review as a potential savior. It might behoove folks trying to save their collective a’s to file amicus briefs arguing Patlex district court (de novo review solves Art. III, 7th Amendment problems) coupled with Executive Benefits Ins. Agency v. Arkison, 134 S. Ct. 2165, 573 U.S., 189 L. Ed. 2d 83 (2014)(de novo review solves Art. III, 7th Amendment problems) is a solution to this. Combine that with a legislative effort to restore de novo review — with respect to all pending reexaminations and IPRs, and the potential damage will be limited. It may also rescue the AIA as a whole, because if any provision of the AIA is held unconstitutional, it all goes done. Urgent action by the movers and shakers is necessary.

      Still, with respect to final reexaminations with claims cancelled from the patent, I think folks trying to recover will confront another problem: waiver. If one does not assert their constitutional rights, one waives them.

      1. 12.3.1

        Ned: if any provision of the AIA is held unconstitutional, it all goes done.

        And then what?

        Here’s an idea: we can stick a big fork in the functional claiming of junky information processing garbage and re-pass the AIA with more reforms, including more opportunities for review of improvidently granted patents and greater restrictions on patent assertion by “patent monetizer” types.

        Bring it on.

        1. 12.3.1.1

          Where was that fork while the AIA was being drafted?

          Methinks you have an opposite-Teddy thing going on: speak loudly to compensate for your little stick.

        2. 12.3.1.2

          MM, good idea.

          For one, repeal 112(f). No savings clause. If a claim is functional at the PON, it cannot be rescued by 112(f). It is invalid.

          This is a long sought goal of mine.

          1. 12.3.1.2.1

            This is a long sought goal of mine.

            I have to chuckle at the implicit admission in this statement.

            If Ned’s goal is to change the law, then by default the current law is not what he wants (or often, how he attempts to portray the law to be).

            Of course, the next step on this little logical journey is to realize what Congress actually did in 1952 – and what Federico actually said about the use of language sounding in function, especially in combination claims.

            The prohibition that is so often sought to be over-applied is against TOTALLY or PURELY claims of function.

            As a certain blog master once indicated, there is a Vast Middle Ground of claims with some physical structure AND functional language (even at Ned’s version of PON) that is completely acceptable under 35 USC 112 – with or without the option of section (f), as I have demonstrated with case law such as In re Orthokinetics – tellingly, a case none of my proponents have even dared comment upon (and that case is not even a “software” case)…

            1. 12.3.1.2.1.1

              Anon,

              Do you think Orthokinetics? Seems like the ‘problem’ with the claims in both instances were fairly similar.

                1. I do not recognize what it is that you think comes from the Nautilus decision, so I do not have a frame of reference for your comment or the comparison to the Orthokinetics case – a case that remains solid law.

                  Or are you saying that the Supreme Court sub silento has thrown out Orthokinetics?

            2. 12.3.1.2.1.3

              link to nytimes.com

              The article above is a great example of how far we have fallen. Facts don’t matter. Only what people feel.

              Anon, the problem is with the latest “functional” judicial activism is that people don’t understand how to map a claim to real world inventions. That is the problem. Funny too the way it is so similar to “abstract.” Lemley figured out that people don’t understand these terms well particularly layman like the new Google judges and the SCOTUS. They are terms that ripe for being categorized as witches.

              I think the way to counter this is to ask for real world examples. What solutions would a person skilled in the art people able to come up with given the spec and claims at the time of the invention?

              Note the way the judicial activist never answer this question. They never tie the claims to real inventions. This is very much like the “abstract” witch.

        3. 12.3.1.3

          >>a big fork in the functional claiming of junky information processing garbage

          Except that this is a made up problem that isn’t real. Thanks Lemley.

          1. 12.3.1.3.1

            (You notice too, Dennis, the pushing of the agenda constantly from MM. Gee, I wonder who pays for that?)

  3. 11

    In the absence of the pending atrocities fora, I give you today’s example. A quiver of energy companies sued, costing anyone who uses energy some miniscule amount….I ask: obvious, abstract, not adequately described, anticipated, or all of the above?

    link to google.com

    1. 11.2

      There’s no way that wasn’t anticipated or obvious in 2000. Controlling devices which use different net protocols via a website. CSS came out in 1998, so creating a “gui” by a series of instructions was well established as standard practice. Even using HTML tables for formatting is arguably a GUI by instruction and that was happening since Mosaic.

      Even if theres no art which anticipates this, which I would highly doubt, this is completely lacking enablement without undue experimentation. The spec keeps harping on allowing the user to issue standard device commands which get interpreted into vendor specific commands. Fig 9, 906. Except that if that is the point of novelty (which from my quick read it seems to be) there’s absolutely no direction that would enable a practicioner to make those routines.

      It’s just a conclusory: “Translate them.” Uh, okay, except if you’re claiming that’s the useful non-anticipated function of your patented technology you should describe how the commands are translated. Do you have a database (this is unclearly implied) containing the rules? So the idea is to store translations and pull them out — e.g. store data in a database then access the data e.g. exactly what databases have done since the first ones were written in the 50s and 60s. Storing data in a database then retrieving it is not novel or nonobvious. If its some sort of intelligent on-the-fly translation (which might actually be novel) it isn’t described and certainly isn’t enabled.

      I’m not going to go into a full analysis on this thing as nobodies paying me to. This is no legal opinion, by a personal opinion: the system ought not allow this type of patent as insufficiently described/not enabled. A practitioner who had this same idea would save literally no time at all reading through the spec, it doesn’t enable anything. It just says configure off the shelf DB, Web Server, connect to Internet, and write some translations. Uh okay, so “I had this idea, but you have to do all the work.” What exactly is the public gaining from this disclosure?

      Patenting is a trade off of gov’t granted monopoly in return for the public gaining the knowledge in order to practice an invention after that grant is done. The public gains nothing from this because it tells you “Here’s a loose idea, but you have to do all the work.” Gee thanks. They don’t even list the devices — how can this guy possibly claim possession of translating ALL possible networked device commands when he doesn’t list what devices he’s actually implemented this on?? Commanding a loudspeaker, a router, and a camera are not equivalents

      Properly enabled pharma patents greatly reduce or eliminate the time to discover the compound. Mechanical patents elaborate and diagram in actual enabling images (e.g. the image shows the design and utility in one swoop by showing the structure of the thing) how to make/do the thing. Software patents like this one loosely describe a result and show you some garbage Waterfall design diagrams that would be the barest minimum starting point to start coding from. If you brought this to a software company this wouldn’t even function as a spec document. You’d need the list of devices, at the very minimum…

      1. 11.2.1

        note: this is incomplete analysis based on a quick scan through. don’t consider this legal advice…

      2. 11.2.2

        >>lacking enablement without undue experimentation.

        No. According to Lemley all information processing/EE is automatically enabled no matter what you write. In fact, I don’t see why Lemley doesn’t write “A computer to perform the working functions of Mark Lemley,” and then pass it off to a clerk with a a pizza to get it done.

  4. 10

    Hi guys,

    I’m a registered patent attorney looking to start my own patent prosecution firm with one other attorney. I’ve worked for various other law firms (both large and small) for about 7 years. I know many seasoned patent practitioners frequent this blog, and I was just wondering if anyone out there had any recommendations, (e.g., billing software, docketing software, malpractice carriers) or practice tips for someone going into business for the first time. I would also like to ask: whenever you get a thorny legal question, and the statutes and case law are unclear, I’m wondering if there is some kind of online resource where patent attorneys go to maybe throw some questions out there and consult with other patent attorneys. Thanks in advance.

      1. 10.1.1

        That’s an interesting Association. How are the forums? Are they as bad as this one?

    1. 10.2

      “I’m wondering if there is some kind of online resource where patent attorneys go to maybe throw some questions out there and consult with other patent attorneys.”

      Welcome to PatentlyO. Ned’s around if you need to consult. There’s a few others around that claim to be attorneys, and at least a few that appear to be.

    2. 10.3

      Great questions. I’ve been told that pretty much all billing and docketing software perform similar functions. The difference maker is the person you hire to use the software. Make sure the person has enough experience that you can reasonably rely on him or her, because you aren’t going to have a lot of time to oversee the workflow. Also, I like to keep my own docket as a back up by having my assistant add important dates to a calendar. If you get the docket situation well-tuned, you won’t need to worry as much about the customer service side of the malpractice carrier, in my experience. If you get the billing situation well-tuned, you won’t have to eat ramen noodles (for long).

      Good luck!

    3. 10.4

      Jamison for reasonably priced insurance.
      FlexTrac for reasonably priced docketing software.
      I just used Quicken for billing and accounting/taxes. My tax guy just took the end-of-year data from Quicken to determine my taxes.

  5. 9

    The most recent stats from the Federal Patents Court in Germany is that 95% of all petitions for revocation were successful, in whole or in part. Only 5% of patents were upheld as granted.

    Two points. First, we are not looking at equity or unenforceability in this civil law court. Second, there is nothing new about “nullity proceedings” before the German Federal Patents Court.

    To me, this demonstrates 1) the pressure on Patent Offices to grant on very dubious subject matter and claims at the limit of patentable width, 2) the death squad at the USPTO is not the only one,and 3) inter partes proceedings explore validity far more effectively than ex parte proceedings at the PTO.

    1. 9.1

      In view of this, should we:
      a) scrap the current system immediately,
      b) move to a pure registration system and let “those that care” – being far less than 2% by today’s standards – worry and “pay into” the cost of “examination” – as opposed to the Billions currently paid into in the US alone,
      c) a combination of both, or
      d) some other option

      Of course, an option not listed is to simply carry on as is.

      I’m curious as to this ecosystem’s examiner contingent’s views. This type of statistic cannot be very comforting as it appears to be a criticism far more severe than what I could “get away with” posting.

      1. 9.1.1

        There is a very good argument that we have already moved to a registration system. $5-$30K for the registration. $500 PGR/IPR phase.

        I think one order of magnitude of expense pretty much nulls out the registration fee. I think there is a very good argument to let all the examiners goo and focus on the PGR/IPR phase. Probably the money the PTO is extorting for registration is not well spent. The money would be better spent on the attorneys/agents that prepare the patent [application].

        The attorneys could charge twice the fee to prepare the registration in preparation for the IPR/PGR (or PRegistrationR).

        The IPR/PGR could be made more of a district court litigation and if you come out of it alive then the presumption should be almost impossible to break. Of course, the problem is standing and the fact anyone can file an IPR against you, which means there is no theoretical limit on the cost of maintaining a patent.

        Really poorly thought out. Only a group with an intent to burn down the system would have come up with the AIA.

        1. 9.1.1.1

          In my mind its as simple as this:

          Either the PTO needs to be willing to spend the time to come at least 75% of the way of the completeness of a prior art search /obviousness analysis as it would receive in litigation, or we acknowledge that the PTO is doing a preliminary check that misses a great deal of art and stop requiring clear and convincing evidence when the evidence is art not previously considered by the PTO. This is basically the de-facto standard now in the post grant procedure AIA world.

          I’m fine with either outcome.

          1. 9.1.1.1.1

            I’m fine with either outcome.

            Except that you are not per your very own comments above (posted minutes before this one).

            Point to consider: while I do not want a registration system, it appears that we are at a point that ANYTHING other than what we have now would be better.

            Keep in mind just how much the current AIA system costs the innovation community: several Billion dollars in user fees alone annually in the way of the USPTO budget.

            Are you really fine with that?

            That’s sad.

          2. 9.1.1.1.2

            >>art not previously considered by the PTO.

            This is wrong. An expert in a field does not have to consider each piece of art, but know the most relevant art. What you wrote actually is one of the great anti-patent wins that this is even written with opprobrium raining down on the writer. We can thank Lemley for this too. Gee, makes you want to get rid of all academics. They have nothing to do but sit around and come up with judicial activism ways of burning the patent system down.

      2. 9.1.2

        “In view of this, should we:
        a) scrap the current system immediately,
        b) move to a pure registration system and let “those that care” – being far less than 2% by today’s standards – worry and “pay into” the cost of “examination” – as opposed to the Billions currently paid into in the US alone,
        c) a combination of both, or
        d) some other option”

        I see no particular problem with business as usual except for the current inclusion of non-useful arts in the patent system as we have today.

          1. 9.1.2.1.1

            Perhaps for the non-useful arts.

            Over here in the useful arts we’re still weeding out plenty of non-meritorious claims and getting applications a decent search.

            1. 9.1.2.1.1.1

              You mean the non-useful arts like the computer that helped you drive your car to work, that you are using to type comments, that evens out the power in the power grid, etc.

              That non-useful stuff?

              1. 9.1.2.1.1.1.1

                “You mean the non-useful arts like the computer that helped you drive your car to work,”

                The only thing the computers in my car do is make my repairs more expensive. I don’t drive a fancy new car with a million tom gizmos.

                “That non-useful stuff?”

                Nah the computers themselves are fine. It’s the authoring of instructions for those computers that’s the part we’re discussing today.

                1. The notion of ‘functionally related’ is lost upon 6.

                  The irony, of course, is delicious.

                  (I wonder if he is still trying to get his Britney Spears CD to act like a Windows operating disc…)

              1. 9.1.2.1.1.2.1

                The oft purposefully mischaracterized reference to the Amish fits here.

                For the likes of certain individuals that refuse to ascribe utility (as in, their Belieb that software is not in the Useful Arts), they should simply put their money where their mouths are and stop using what they consider ‘non-useful’ art items.

                After all, there is an entire Belieb system that inculcates that type of exclusion.

                1. “anon” stop using what they consider ‘non-useful’ art items.

                  It must be difficult to pretend to be a patent attorney, as you do, and not understand the difference between a junky functional patent claim and actual software that might fall within the scope of that claim.

                  Of course, this lame business about the Amish comes from the same self-styled referee who likes to pretend that the ineligibility of useful non-obvious books is somehow “off limits” when discussing instructions for computers.

                2. Brush aside the ad hominem and (once again) you have said nothing.

                  Maybe you want to make your point using those short declarative sentences you are always on about…

      3. 9.1.3

        link to slate.com

        Everyone should re-read this article along with the recent article in the WSJ about Google manipulating search results to favor their products even when they were less relevant.

        And, Google is number one in lobbying Congress, and Google doesn’t want software patents, and now we have a Google Fed. Cir. and Google Director.

        Seriously, read those two article (and the one from ft.com) and tell me that all this anti-patent stuff doesn’t have the same feel.

        1. 9.1.3.1

          “Seriously, read those two article (and the one from ft.com) and tell me that all this anti-patent stuff doesn’t have the same feel.”

          When you define things with that feel as “anti-patent” then I’m sure they do.

          1. 9.1.3.1.1

            You appear to miss the point that the same feel is there by paying too much attention to the label for that feeling.

              1. 9.1.3.1.1.1.2

                (Another try)

                I just don’t care

                An attribute that you have projected onto me…

            1. 9.1.3.1.2.1

              The mindset that 6 presents in his “Bro” comments (which oddly do not make it past the censor when I point this out), exemplifies the inability of 6 to employ critical thinking.

              This is why 6 is the postcard of the non-thinking lemming, having quaffed prodigious quantities of the anti’s koolaid, and pretending that the aspect of software that deserves patent protection does not exist and instead wanting only to portray a different aspect of software.

              He seems completely unwilling to recognize the reality that software simply has multiple aspects, each of which can earn protection under the different realms of intellectual property law.

              Sadly, attorneys who should know better (and some who do, but still act otherwise), are permitted (and at times the perception is there of being encouraged) to obfuscate the reality that different intellectual property laws provide different protections for different aspects of those things manufactured by the hands of man.

              America’s leading source of something other than patent law is a bane to actual patent law.

              And that is an inconvenient fact for many of a certain philosophical leaning.

              1. 9.1.3.1.2.1.1

                >America’s leading source of something other than patent law >is a bane to actual patent law.

                I think you are right. It is impossible to discuss real issues on here unless they fit the paid bloggers agenda. It is impossible to compete with someone that is being paid to blog full-time. If you post something that doesn’t fit the agenda, you are blasted into obscurity with dozens of posts are attacked.

                I would ask Dennis –again–to do just one thing: verify that the frequent contributors are real people and simply check out their employer.

                1. I would distinguish your comment in a nuanced – but important – way:

                  Competition.

                  In a “battle for thought” competition is affected by all the rules of “rhetoric,” including the arts of sophistry and propaganda.

                  As my friend Anon2 so subtlety pointed out, this is not an objective forum.

                  One of the “tricks” then is to simply not fully engage in a true dialogue.

                  As I have pointed out, there are several paths to this method often employed here.

                  You have the “blast” method. You have the ever-polite-but-disappearing-at-critical-points method, you have the won’t-acknowledge-counterpoints method. You have the pure-ad hominem-attempt-to-discredit-Med (or ‘can’t understand English version) method.

                  These are methods ployed time and again – and without reference to the paid or not status of the sAme ones (to draw a clear distinction from the mere sOmeones).

                  It is not a matter of “competing” as much as it is a matter of how that competing unfolds.

                  The ability to engage in an internet style shout down by merely repeating old positions ad nauseum no matter what counterpoints are raised in any one discussion is the key driver why there is no improvement in “the ecosystem” over the course of nine years. And this is why there will be NO improvement.

                  I “get” that different viewpoints being expressed is a desirable thing. The problem comes when those different viewpoints wanting to be “preserved” comes at the expense of actually arriving at conclusions necessitated by logic, critical thinking, and real law and history that simply do not support certain philosophical stands.

                  The merry-go-round continues. This forum is a bully pulpit for incompatible views – and the battle is not over.

                2. That’s basically right anon. My big point, though, is that paid bloggers really tip the scales.

                  It is a bigger issue than this blog. It is happening all over the Internet. I posed an article a while back about paid bloggers. One point are the odds that the anti-patent groups haven’t hired paid bloggers? Zero.

        2. 9.1.3.2

          People really should read these articles because they illustrate the tactics used by Google and the fact that Google has effected epic change.

          If you care about our patent system, then you should take a look at these.

          1. 9.1.3.2.1

            Also, if there is any truth to the proposition that executives of corporations become like their corporations, then these articles also go to what we can expect from Director Lee.

    2. 9.2

      Perhaps I should qualify my remarks above.

      About one third of oppositions at the EPO end in the patent being “maintained in amended form”. A high proportion of the German Federal Patent Court invalidity cases end in the patent surviving with a narrower claim.

      When this is the outcome, should it be counted as a win for the patent owner or for the petitioner for revocation? Most commentators put it at 50:50. In about half the cases, the narrower claims are still potent. So, in Europe, a fair proportion of cases where the patent does not survive as issued do constitute a “win” for the patent owner. And of course, a patent whose validity has been through the fire of such proceedings does of course carry an enhanced presumption of validity.

      1. 9.2.1

        does of course carry an enhanced presumption of validity

        Is that a legal statement?
        Is that only for the particular art?
        How does that wash in a system without state decisis?

        I think rather that such was what is called “a throw away” comment.

        1. 9.2.1.1

          In England, if you see off the validity attack you can ask for a Certificate of Contested Validity. Challenge the validity of a patent so certificated and, if you lose, you pay legal costs to the patent owner at a higher-rated scale.

          Regardless of jurisdiction, if the best prior art just failed, and so did the new matter and enablement attacks, and you are next up, to attack validity, what are you going to do, to bring the patent down?

          1. 9.2.1.1.1

            You have managed to both dodge the questions I put to you and assume that any first “attacker” actually had the “best” art.

            Please try again to answer the questions without such self-serving assumptions.

      2. 9.2.2

        Might I add, Max, that in Europe generally speaking if a claim narrowed in a postgrant proceedings still covers products still sold within the statute of limits, that one can still collect damages. Not so in the United States.

        Couple that with no reliability of injunctions as opposed to Europe and our postgrant proceedings are caused substantial damages to patent owners who must amend their claims.

        1. 9.2.2.1

          postgrant proceedings are caused substantial damages to patent owners who must amend their claims.

          File better claims.

          Most of the patents that are getting tanked in IPR are very deserving. It’s no excuse to say, e.g., that “nobody could have predicted the magic words we used to get us past the PTO wouldn’t stand up to challenge.” Particular in the computer-implemented arts the transparent and systematic flaws in the vast majority of granted claims was predicted and discussed for many years.

          We need more IPR proceedings, not fewer. And we need to make them cheaper and easier to bring against patentees.

          1. 9.2.2.1.1

            Malcolm, I don’t know how you can say that most of the patents being tanked in IPRs are not very deserving?

        2. 9.2.2.2

          Thanks for that, Ned. I think experience all over Europe is that patent owners, through no fault of their own, often need a narrowing amendment, post-issue, to get to a claim that is infringed but not invalid. The EPC was amended, to include the post-issue pan-European “limitation procedure”, centrally, at the EPO, exactly to address that need.

          Why should owners of good claims, thus amended, not be entitled to rapid injunctive relief? Why should they be deprived of compensatory damages for infringing acts committed prior to the amendment? It’s not fair.

        3. 9.2.2.3

          “Couple that with no reliability of injunctions as opposed to Europe and our postgrant proceedings are caused substantial damages to patent owners who must amend their claims.”

          Maybe at some point these ar sehats will start taking a modicum of responsibility for themselves then.

          1. 9.2.2.3.1

            ar sehats will start taking a modicum of responsibility for themselves then.

            You mean like examiners themselves, taking responsibility for examining well in the first place?

            You funny.

            1. 9.2.2.3.1.1

              Examining well is no substitute for the ar se hats themselves taking responsibility. If they stand to lose big they need to stop relying on big bro to take all responsibility.

        4. 9.2.2.4

          to be fair, the PTO seems to be taking the issue of illusory amendment rights seriously and they’re planning on making some changes around it. The request for proposals opened a while back didn’t it?

    3. 9.3

      Max, your last sentence is the key, that: “inter partes proceedings explore validity far more effectively than ex parte proceedings at the PTO.” Especially in the U.S., where most of the ex parte proceeding petitioners can easily justify the time and effort required for a really thorough prior art search and supporting declarations because they are being sued on the patent. [EPO pre-grant oppositions are cheaper, not always so strongly motivated, and not always as thorough.]
      No one in the U.S. would support such highly expensive prior art searches and thorough examinations by APJ lawyers for ordinary patent applications. It would make obtaining patents prohibitively expensive for many applicants.
      As for your and Ned’s added points below, in the U.S. “intervening rights” is a partial problem for asserting new or amended claims if the amended patent is being asserted when it is old, as “intervening rights” will prevent back damages recoveries from before the new or amended claims issue, but NOT necessarily all forward damages recoveries. 35 USC 318: “(c) Intervening Rights- Any proposed amended or new claim determined to be patentable and incorporated into a patent following an inter partes review under this chapter shall have the same effect as that specified in section 252 for reissued patents on the right of any person who made, purchased, or used within the United States, or imported into the United States, anything patented by such proposed amended or new claim, or who made substantial preparation therefor, before the issuance of a certificate under subsection (b).”

      1. 9.3.1

        Paul, I suppose you intended “post-grant” rather than “pre-grant” when you mentioned EPO inter partes opposition proceedings.

        I agree with you that some are not as “thorough” as they might be. For big in house patent depts of some large German corporations, for example, oppositions at the EPO are useful cheap training opportunities which they can use to “blood” younger department members, aspiring trial attorneys, in inter partes written and oral proceedings.

    4. 9.4

      “To me, this demonstrates 1) the pressure on Patent Offices to grant on very dubious subject matter and claims at the limit of patentable width, 2) the death squad at the USPTO is not the only one,and 3) inter partes proceedings explore validity far more effectively than ex parte proceedings at the PTO.”

      Idk bro.

      1. Unless you’re talking about softiewafie/biz stuff I don’t see any truth to that in the actual useful arts in my day to day.

      2. Obv not.

      3. Of course, but they’re also much more expensive. Put that much money into an examination and maybe you’ll get the same result.

      1. 9.4.1

        Thanks 6.

        As to 1) Yes I am talking about the biz stuff. As to the useful arts, I don’t like “common sense” as an obviousness standard. Good patentable stuff is going down on 103 attacks that rely on impermissible hindsight. Bring back TSM please, or adopt the EPO’s hindsight-free Approach.

        As to 3) you might be surprised how little it costs, to dispute validity in Europe. Inherently, it is not “much more expensive”. It can be though, if you let it be.

        1. 9.4.1.1

          “Good patentable stuff is going down on 103 attacks that rely on impermissible hindsight. ”

          Could be, but technically here in ‘Merica the law is da law.

          “As to 3) you might be surprised how little it costs, to dispute validity in Europe. Inherently, it is not “much more expensive”. It can be though, if you let it be.”

          Well that’s cool. Usually you’re probably just looking for a better search most likely or another pair of eyes reviewing the app for problems.

          1. 9.4.1.1.1

            6, great revealing answers. I do appreciate your “could be”.

            As to ex parte vs inter partes, I was thinking more along the lines of the trite saying that “There are two sides to every story”. It is trite because it’s true.

            For as long as you are the Examiner of the application prior to issue, you get only get one of them now don’t you? Do you not think (like EPO Examiners do, because a big part of their workload is oppositions) you might just possibly be in a better position to decide fairly, after you have heard both sides of the story? For example, not just what patent owner J&J tell you about the state of the art but also what Opponent Medtronic has to say?

            1. 9.4.1.1.1.1

              “Do you not think (like EPO Examiners do, because a big part of their workload is oppositions) you might just possibly be in a better position to decide fairly, after you have heard both sides of the story? For example, not just what patent owner J&J tell you about the state of the art but also what Opponent Medtronic has to say?”

              Oh for sure. I would love to have such evidence esp., but also arguments, in front of me. Because that would take so much of the work out of my job it isn’t even funny. At that point I become more of just “the deciderer”. And I’m pretty good at being the deciderer. I’m able to recognize when the time for executive decision making is at hand (usually that’s when all the facts are in and the legalities have been pondered).

  6. 8

    Based on experience with cross-examination of opposed technical experts in English litigation over the validity of chemical patents, I have argued here for years that the PTO is hopelessly handicapped, in ex parte proceedings, in its ability to find the facts. In England, the technical experts exchange expert reports long before trial. Cross-exam at trial, with the witness about six feet in front of the judge, is on the content of those respective reports. It is the heart of the trial. Each tech expert is in the box for a day or even a day and a half. The barrister asking the questions is a proxy for the opposing expert.

    And now we have this case. And I read MM’s comment upthread, viz:

    “The patentee had luck convincing the PTO during re-exam to accept its interpretation of the art (with respect to teaching away and unexpected results) but the district court judge, who had the luxury of watching the experts testify during cross examination, was not convinced nor were two out of three of the CAFC judges.”

    Don’t know about “luxury” though. I would advocate replacing that word with “decisive advantage”. Because it is an advantage. And it is of decisive importance.

  7. 7

    Appellees
    further point out that there is no support for appellants’
    argument that the “0” assigned to the 0.01 w/v% EDTA
    numbers in Table XIII of Grass 1988-I means that the
    measured result is unreliable. Instead, appellees argue,
    this “0” simply signifies that the data did not reach statistical
    significance, even though one of ordinary skill reading
    Grass 1988-I observed raw data confirming an actual
    measured increase of corneal permeability, even at 0.01
    w/v% EDTA levels.

    This is the crux of the case. The expert is wrong – you can get a “measured increase” BUT you can’t necessarily assign it to something. That’s what statistical significance IS. When there’s no significance, you can’t tie the measured increase to the functionality of the EDTA, and therefore you can’t say that the EDTA DOES something.

    That being said, it’s affirmable under obvious to try and optimization – you have evidence that EDTA causes an effect, and that the effect increases as you go higher in concentration. Therefore, it’s obvious to try small amounts and see if there is any effect at all. There is no teaching away as Newman suggests, because the art shows a correllation and the art does not suggest it has to reach a certain value for the correllation to begin.

  8. 6

    Actually there IS a Fed. Cir. decision that suggests a possibly enhanced evidence burden where [as in this re-examination] the subject prior art was considered in the PTO examination of the subject allowed claims. The CAFC held in Hewlett-Packard co. v. Bausch & Lomb Inc., 15 USPQ2d 1526, 1527 (Fed. Cir. 1990) that “the burden of showing, by clear and convincing evidence, the invalidity of [patent claims]” . . “is especially difficult when the prior art was before the PTO during the prosecution of the application.”
    [I am not aware of any other CAFC decision as clear on this point, but other readers may be?] [Was this HP v. B&L decision cited here?]

  9. 5

    Two quick things:

    1) I would love to see more development and support for the comment: “there are some reasons to think that IPR/PGR decisions should be given deference under the APA.” – especially given the amount of flack those have recieved (including the attention to the related Ned Heller law suit).

    2) the topic is touched on in part at the following link, which is an interesting discussion on small business views and the STRONG bill:

    link to senate.gov

      1. 5.1.1

        Ned,

        They did not, and my apologies if I created that perception.

        They did spend a lot of time between the Goodlatte and the STRONG bills and the point here that I wanted to indicate was that while the AIA effects should be kept in mind, the rather strong leaning as noted (having deference under the APA) seemed unsupported by anything that I have ever seen.

        If anything, the APA (at least in my mind) actually leans towards your views in your suit.

        1. 5.1.1.1

          anon, the committee chairs point out that testimony in support of Goodlatte says that small business support that bill. But, the people who testified in the Goodlatte hearings are not from small businesses.

          What they heard here is that Goodlatte is actually strongly opposed by small businesses because it weakens patents. Patents are critically important to small businesses, not to large. One testifier pointed out the GM is now leading the charge against the patent system because they do not need patents themselves, and want to weaken patents asserted against them.

          The committee was highly impressed that small business need strong patents, oppose Goodlatte, support Strong, and see real problems in IPRs as currently structured.

          1. 5.1.1.1.1

            The committee was highly impressed that small business need strong patents, oppose Goodlatte, support Strong, and see real problems in IPRs as currently structured.

            That was my impression as well (gasp, we have found another point of agreement).

            Of course this is not all that surprising given that one of the writers of the STRONG bill was on the panel.

            I also found it interesting that a recent guest poster here, Mr. Molina was an invited participant.

            I recognize my own predilections, but found his response to why he supported the Goodlatte bill but not the STRONG bill to be entirely unconvincing.

    1. 5.2

      @47:00 approx.

      Ms. King reports that no standing speculators ARE shorting small company stock, then filing IPRs, then reaping enormous profits. She says that this IS criminal.

      No Standing.

      She points out that 80% of patents IPRed are held invalid.

      Lower standard than district court is the identified problem.

      Urges Strong reform.

      1. 5.2.2

        Why is that criminal? I’m not sure that is true. I’d like to see an argument for that is supposedly criminal.

        1. 5.2.2.1

          It sounds like they are trying to equate an IPR with reporting the company for wrong behavior as if the IPR filer knows something material about the company that is not public. I am not sure just because the filer is one that takes the action that it means that the knowledge is not public. Maybe the material information is that you are going to file an IPR. Hmm….

          1. 5.2.2.1.1

            I’m not well versed in securities, but it does seem awfully close to insider trading without necessarily being an “insider”

  10. 4

    Was the ex parte reexamination initiated by the patent owner? [In that case, all evidence and arguments are solely those presented by the patent owner,with no cross-examination or rebuttal by anyone else, and if successful [so that no appeal is required] no APJs are ever involved. It seems surprising that they are not used by patent owners more often? It also seems surprising that allowed amended claims so obtained, as here, are not presented in a jury trial rather than a bench trial?

    1. 4.1

      What could the patentee have been thinking bringing suit on claims and patent that the judge had previously invalidated and then allowing a bench trial? IT’s usually the civil plaintiff that demands jury trials because lay juries are easier to bamboozle than educated judges.

      1. 4.1.1

        Owen,

        I am not sure you read close enough or just became confused with the title of the thread, as while the same patent was in play, there were not the same claims in play.

        By chance was that on purpose to give an example with yourself as the jury member?

        1. 4.1.1.1

          I am not sure you read close enough or just became confused with the title of the thread, as while the same patent was in play, there were not the same claims in play.

          Except that the judge had already expressed an opinion as to what the evidence had shown and it wasn’t good for the patentee. The patentee raised an argument on appeal that the judge was biased because she only considered the difference between the previous claimset and the new claimset. Had that been a concern for the patentee they could have avoided it with a jury.

        2. 4.1.1.2

          “…court blocked Senju from asserting the reexamined claims against the same party…”

          Against new defendants, the new claims were found obvious. Against the original, they were found sufficiently similar to be precluded. So I mentioned the patent and specific claims separately.

          “By chance was that on purpose to give an example with yourself as the jury member?”

          Either way would work, I suppose. Skipping a jury when you already think the judge is biased against your claim is just silly.

          1. 4.1.1.2.1

            So I mentioned the patent and specific claims separately.

            Past tense of “mention”…

            Sorry Owen, but your post at 4.1 – the actual post my comment was directed to – said the exact opposite of what you are trying to say now.

            If you want to change your statement, that’s fine, but please do not be duplicitous and attempt to portray no change in your statements. Your goalpost moving equipment is just not that good and you have left heavy tracks in the ground that all can readily see.

  11. 3

    In these “crowded” art areas, companies have to be prepared to reach the end of the line for robust patentability of “new” formulations combining well-known off-the-shelf stabilizers and chelating agents. Candy companies typically don’t waste millions fighting over ownership of the percentage of peanuts, caramel and dried fruit in their chocolate bars but its business-as-usual for these drug companies and their barely tweaked formulations.

    Newman: no combination of prior art references shows or suggests the use of very low concentrations of EDTA to enhance the corneal permeability of antibiotic formulations of gatifloxacin, or of any other quinolone. . . .

    There’s serious problems with Newman’s argument in dissent. The most serious problem is that expert testimony at trial established — to the district court judge’s satisfaction — that one skilled in the art would interpret the prior art as teaching that achieving increased corneal permeability of the recited quinolone using low concentrations of EDTA was both reasonably expected and a matter of routine optimization. The patentee had luck convincing the PTO during re-exam to accept its interpretation of the art (with respect to teaching away and unexpected results) but the district court judge, who had the luxury of watching the experts testify during cross examination, was not convinced nor were two out of three of the CAFC judges.

    1. 3.1

      You appear to be attempting to compare Newman statement on intrinsic evidence with some explicitly extrinsic evidence.

      Recent Supreme Court cases do distinguish between the two.

      Does that (should that?) change your argument? Did the Supreme Court “get it wrong” by making the distinction that they did?

      1. 3.1.1

        Intrinsic/extrinsic is used for determining the meaning of contested claim terms.

        You appear to be attempting to confuse claim construction with what the prior art says. Prior art is intrinsically extrinsic to the patent/application at issue.

        1. 3.1.1.1

          You apparently do not understand what those terms mean in context here.

          I suggest that you understand the context of the terms first, then read again (or for the first time) the recent Supreme Court case that uses those terms, and then realize why your comment is simply inapposite here.

          Thanks and have a nice day.

          1. 3.1.1.1.1

            It’s evident that one of us has posted some ill-advised comments and then done a backflip in a lame attempt to recover.

            Given that’s your modus operandi… …congrats, I guess.

            Oops, you’ve done it again, El Lamo.

            1. 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Malcolm called, he wants his “Accuse Others Of That Which Malcolm Does” back.

              (ps, leave out the Latin, as your use hear without foundation just makes you look like an arse)

              1. 3.1.1.1.1.1.1

                Latin? LoL.

                Readers can judge for themselves who hear [sic] has common behavior making him/her appear to be an arse.

                Last Word.

                Lamo.

    2. 3.2

      I don’t have much sympathy with claims like these (shocking, I know!)

      Crowded art and the applicant tinkers with percentages and commonly known ingredients. Unless the applicant can demonstrate some unexpected benefit, why should they get a patent?

  12. 2

    All decisions of the USPTO are already given deference. That’s what the presumption of validity is. Giving greater evidentiary weight to factual conclusions reached by the USPTO along with the presumption of validity would be “double dipping”.

  13. 1

    Cases like this are the sort of thing that come up when people complain about the high cost of patent litigation in the USA.

    1. 1.2

      Don’t forget that new or amended claims issuing from a U.S. reexamination are subject by its statute to the significant [if partial] defense of “intervening rights.”

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