Biosig v. Nautilus: Indefiniteness on Remand

By Jason Rantanen

Biosig Instruments, Inc. v. Nautilus, Inc. (Fed. Cir. 2015) (on remand from the Supreme Court) [2015 WL 1883265]  Download Opinion
Panel: Newman, Schall, Wallach (author)

About a month ago, I wrote an essay entitled “Teva, Nautilus and Change without Change.”  To the extent that anyone still harbored doubts about that premise in the context of Nautilus, the Federal Circuit’s opinion on remand should dispel them.  (Caveat: As I discussed in the essay, means-plus-function claims, such as the claims in Eon that Dennis will post about shortly, are a whole different ball of wax.  To me one of the most fascinating issues in patent law right now is whether the court will expand that framework to function-claiming more broadly.  The revised Nautilus opinion leaves that door a little more open than the original opinion.)

This dispute is well-known, so I’ll just summarize the procedural posture.  The district court granted summary judgment that the claims were indefinite.  On appeal, the Federal Circuit reversed, holding the claims not indefinite.  The Supreme Court granted certiorari to address the legal standard the Federal Circuit referenced on indefiniteness: that a claim is indefinite “only when it is ‘not amenable to construction’ or ‘insolubly ambiguous.'” 715 F.3d 891, 898 (2013).  In Nautilus, the Supreme Court rejected this standard:

Those formulations can breed lower court confusion, for they lack the precision § 112, ¶ 2 demands. It cannot be sufficient that a court can ascribe some meaning to a patent’s claims; the definiteness inquiry trains on the understanding of a skilled artisan at the time of the patent application, not that of a court viewing matters post hoc. To tolerate imprecision just short of that rendering a claim “insolubly ambiguous” would diminish the definiteness requirement’s public-notice function and foster the innovation-discouraging “zone of uncertainty,” United Carbon, 317 U.S., at 236, 63 S.Ct. 165, against which this Court has warned.

Nautilus, 134 S.Ct. at 2130 (2014).  The Court did not, however, resolve the overall dispute, instead returning the appeal to the Federal Circuit.

On remand the parties disputed “whether the Supreme Court articulated a new, stricter standard or whether, in rejecting the phrases ‘insolubly ambiguous’ and ‘amenable to construction,’ the Court was primarily clarifying that a patent’s claims must inform those skilled in the art with “reasonable certainty” of what is claimed.”  Slip Op. at 7-8.  The Federal Circuit did not directly answer this question, but suggested the latter through a nautical metaphor: “The Court has accordingly modified the standard by which lower courts examine allegedly ambiguous claims; we may now steer by the bright star of ‘reasonable certainty,’ rather than the unreliable compass of ‘insoluble ambiguity.'”  Id. at 9. The implication of this metaphor, combined with the passage preceding it, is that the problem the Court perceived was not that the insolubly ambiguous standard allowed too much imprecision in patent claims; the problem was that the insolubly ambiguous standard itself was too imprecise: “The Court found too imprecise our “insolubly ambiguous” standard,” Id. at 8.  The implication that Nautilus simply clarified, rather than raised, the standard for indefiniteness is further supported by an extensively-footnoted discussion of “reasonably certainty” as a “familiar standard,” one that “In the wake of Nautilus II, judges have had not problem operating under.”  Id. at 12.  The takeaway is that Nautilus offers a more precise standard, but not one that moves the target.

With this clarification in place, the panel concluded that its prior decision was correct: Biosig’s claims inform those skilled in the art with reasonable certainty about the scope of the invention.”  Id. at 14.  The court’s revised analysis turns entirely on the intrinsic evidence (“We revisit the intrinsic evidence here to make clear that a skilled artisan would understand with reasonable certainty the scope of the invention.”)  Notably missing from this discussion is any mention of Halliburton, which the court distinguished at length in the original opinion.  To the contrary: the description of the indefiniteness standard at the beginning of the opinion expressly quotes from that case: “Moreover, when a claim limitation is defined in ‘purely functional terms,’ a determination of whether the limitation is sufficiently definite is ‘highly dependent on context (e.g., the disclosure in the specification and the knowledge of a person of ordinary skill in the relevant art area).’ Halliburton Energy Servs., Inc. v. M-I LLC, 514 F.3d 1244, 1255 (Fed. Cir. 2008).”  Function-claiming remains an area to watch.

208 thoughts on “Biosig v. Nautilus: Indefiniteness on Remand

    1. 14.1

      …or not (if you bothered to read the Eon case, you would note that it is a dud).

      But maybe you can find a funny gif…?

  1. 13

    link to therecorder.com

    Article in The Recorder on the Eon case, noting a potential “one-two punch” should the Federal Circuit wakes up and starts recognizing that many software claims rely on nonce words (e.g., “module” or “device”) to fuzz up the lack of definite structure — real structure or fake “structure” — in their claims drafted to protect “new functionalities” for configurable machines. In that regard, the Recorder article links to Jason’s earlier blog post re the Williamson v. Citrix case (this one: link to patentlyo.com).

    1. 13.1

      It looks like en banc has been pending in Williamson since December. Anyone have any thoughts on what’s going on there?

    2. 13.2

      And yet, in the real world–you know reality, these same words and functional specifications are used to write specifications for software systems and are used on such sites as elance for real programmers to bid on real structure.

      So, again, we have this bizzarro world where liberal arts judges are fabricating reality. Thanks Obama.

    3. 13.3

      Again with the dissembling of “claiming functionalities” as if the option of writing claims in total “objective” physical structure was the only option under the law (and that is beyond just 112(f), which other dust kickers here apparently want to obscure).

      More of the same – nothing new, keep moving.

  2. 12

    OT: ScotusBlog had this interesting petition for cert highlighted today:

    link to scotusblog.com

    Internet Machines LLC v. Cyclone Microsystems Inc.

    The Federal Circuit affirmed the lawyer court’s decision per curium which may be why there was no coverage of the case here. Looks to me like Internet Machines is seeking to reverse at least partially the Federal Circuit’s holding in Transocean v. Maersk (CAFC 2010; discussed here link to patentlyo.com) that the location of acceptance of an offer to provide goods does not control whether an infringing “sale” under 271(a) has taken place. Instead, it’s the location of manufacture or delivery of the purchased goods that matters (e.g., two companies that contract within US territory to perform both manufacturing and delivery of a patented product overseas are not infringers under 271(a)).

    Internet Machine’s petition for cert was filed March 26.

    1. 12.2

      Title and the article are not the same thing. So, when we speak of “sale,” are we speaking of transfer of title or possession of the article?

      1. 12.2.1

        So, when we speak of “sale,” are we speaking of transfer of title or possession of the article?

        Actually neither, in the case at issue, since an infringing article was apparently never built. In this case, both parties seemed to concede that entering a contract to build a patented system could be a “sale/offer to sell,” but argued over how to define the location of that sale.

        The district court thought the place the contract was made should control, and said there was no sale or offer to sale because the deal was made outside the US. The Federal Circuit said that the important thing was that the contract was for activities to be performed in the US. (The sale/offer to sale issue was critical because the contracted-for system was redesigned before it was actually installed in the US, so as to no longer fall under the claims.)

        1. 12.2.1.1

          Under the category of “one can always hope,” can we explore the concept here that no actual article need exist for the part of the law dealing with offer for sale to be violated?

          Does that impact any of the “location” arguments?

          Should the “policy” tend towards the protective aspect and be wide ranging so as to include not only where the offer may have been made, but also whereever the reach of the business entities involved in the offer exist? Other forms of infringement have policy drivers such that skirting the letter of the law is frowned upon, so why not here with the mere offer?

        2. 12.2.1.2

          DanH, I’m not sure what “case at issue” you are referring to.

          My understanding of Internet Machines (the case for which the cert petition is pending) is that there were, in fact, infringing articles made and the defendant was found by the district court to have infringed the patent with certain of its actions. [from the cert peition: “The judgment entered by the District Court and affirmed by the Federal Circuit determined that PLX’s products imported directly from PLX’s overseas warehouse … infringed the patents-in-suit.”]

          The district court’s finding that was appealed by the patentee to the Federal Circuit (who affirmed the district court per curium) and which the Supremes are being asked to review is based on the CAFC’s holding in Transocean. Specifically, the district court found that the sale agreement — completed in the US — was not infringement under 271(a) because the agreement is for manufacturing that occurs overseas. As far as I can tell, there is no dispute that such manufacturing does occur overseas, nor is there any dispute that the claimed invention is “embedded” into third party products and then imported into the US.

          Internet Machine’s “strongest” argument for reversal of the Transocean holding is that it’s “too hard” for patentee’s like Internet Machine to police and discover examples of embedded embodiments of their invention in imported goods. Frankly, that argument strikes me as ridiculous. If it’s “too hard” for you to identify and prove that some component of an imported device is infringing your patent, then you shouldn’t have bothered filing your patent in the first place.

          The last line of the cert petition is interesting: Without action from this Court, millions of OEM products with hidden, infringing embedded components are free to enter the country to the detriment of United States patent holders and businesses, and to the detriment of innovation in this country.

          In fact, regardless of how 271(a) is interpreted (and I think the Federal Circuit’s interpretation is perfectly reasonable), embedded components that infringe US patents are going to continue to enter the country and almost all US businesses (and other consumers) will benefit immensely from that. The fact that certain “patent holders” own rights to inventions that are difficult to identify when they are “embedded” isn’t a “detriment to innovation” in the US or anywhere else. It’s just a practical real-world business problem those particular patent holders need to contend with, or they need to get out of the business and let someone else step in.

          Personally, I’m much more interested in the Promega v. Life Tech petition for cert, which has not been filed yet. If anyone knows whether that case settled (I hope not), please share …

          1. 12.2.1.2.1

            Since importation is still infringement, and you take obvious delight in patentee’s NOT being protected (infringers benefiting), it is so very clear that with friends of the patent system like you, who needs enemies?

            1. 12.2.1.2.1.1

              “anon”: importation is still infringement

              Indeed it is.

              you take obvious delight in patentee’s NOT being protected

              Protected from what? Their own bad decisions about what is worth protecting with a patent? Their own unwillingness to do the work to figure out when their own “property” is being “trespassed” upon?

              Importation is still infringement. And so is the sale of items to be imported. It’s unclear why that isn’t enough, other than “ME PATENTEE! ME WANT MORE MONEY MORE EASY!”

              1. 12.2.1.2.1.1.1

                Their own bad decisions about what is worth protecting with a patent?

                More spin and dissembling misdirection.

                Go figure.

        3. 12.2.1.3

          DanH, thanks. At 1st blush it would seem that there is significant ambiguity in what “offer of sale” really means beyond simply location. If the embodiment of the invention does not exist, I don’t think they can be infringement at all.

          1. 12.2.1.3.1

            Where in the words or scope of the words by Congress that pertain to “offer,” does one find the requirement of what is being offered must be physically extant at the time of (or at any time) of the offer?

            The act of infringement based on “offer” is separate and distinct from any other act of infringement.

            Let’s keep a clear mind on these distinctions.

  3. 11

    OT (breaking): In re Magna Electronics, 14-1798 (CAFC May 7 2015)

    Nor can Magna substantiate its claim of skepticism of experts. As we have noted, such arguments often require a showing of technical infeasibility or manufacturing uncertainty. …Yet here, Magna relies only on high costs and other companies’ purported preferences. Such evidence “does not raise doubt that a CMOS camera-based automotive vision system can be manufactured”.

    This was the correct decision (upholding the PTO’s invalidation of Magna’s claims as obvious). Additionally, it’s great to see the CAFC plainly moving away its poorly reasoned decision in Anderson v. Pella (CAFC 2008; Schall and Rader) where “price feasibility” was a significant factor in finding non-obviousnes (even when the claims failed to recite cost as a limitation).

    1. 11.1

      Also out today: Biogen v. Japanese Foundation for Research 2014-1525 (CAFC May 7, 2015)

      This looks like one for the subject matter jurisdiction nerds out there (it’s precedential, at least). I haven’t read it yet.

      1. 11.1.2

        In short, no disctrict court appeals of interferences filed after Sept. 15, 2012. 146 district court appeals continue only for interferences filed before that date.

    2. 11.2

      MM, reminds me of the Selden patent. He got the patent because he was the first to adapt a previous engine for a car. The problem was weight. His modifications reduced weight, but maintained enough power to move the car.

      Result: patent on the engine and the car.

      The problem with the car claim, was that it was not limited to the modified engine. Nevertheless, the courts sustained its validity by limiting its scope by construction to the use of the modified engine. The implication was that if the scope was broader, the claim was invalid.

      link to en.wikipedia.org

    3. 11.3

      This appeal was pretty weak all around. The patentee was arguing that it wasn’t obvious to substitute a CMOS camera for a CCD camera in an automobile rearview vision system. While early CMOS cameras had performance issues (and, apparently, cost issues) that would have rendered them less than optimal for such an application, the combination was nevertheless technically obvious, especially since it was a foregone conclusion that the performance and costs would steadily improve (as they did, of course).

  4. 10

    First, it appears to me that the Federal Circuit has essentially ignored the very clear holding and direction issued by the Supreme Court and that the attempts to reconcile past Federal Circuit indefiniteness decisions with the Supreme Court’s clear standard are in vain.

    Second, for the specific case involving the spacing of the sensors, it appears to me that the Federal Circuit slips into what is essentially enablement and away from definiteness and certainty of scope. Of course one of ordinary skill in the art could determine spacing of the sensors but how would that engineer know if that spacing was within or without the protected spacing range. This is true even when you consider that touching is too close and wider than a hand is too far.

    The essential purpose of a patent and of claims in particular is to give notice. For notice to be effective it must be clear and unambiguous. Anything less defeats the essential purpose of a patent.

      1. 10.1.1

        The correct degree of friability can be ascertained only by testing the performance of the product in actual processes of manufacture of products of which carbon black is a component.”

        For “strength” “we have this rough and ready test: does it survive under gentle rubbing of the fingers. I would not say that is an adequate test to predicate rubber behavior on, but it is a rough and ready test”; and if it responds to that test it is a pellet within the meaning of the claim.

        So read, the claims are but inaccurate suggestions of the functions of the product, and fall afoul of the rule that a patentee may not broaden his claims by describing the product in terms of function.

        The statutory requirement of particularity and distinctness in claims is met only when they clearly distinguish what is claimed from what went before in the art and clearly circumscribe what is foreclosed from future enterprise. A zone of uncertainty which enterprise and experimentation may enter only at the risk of infringement claims would discourage invention only a little less than unequivocal foreclosure of the field. Moreover, the claims must be reasonably clear-cut to enable courts to determine whether novelty and invention are genuine. … Whether the vagueness of the claim has its source in the language employed or in the somewhat indeterminate character of the advance claimed to have been made in the art is not material. An invention must be capable of accurate definition, and it must be accurately defined, to be patentable.

        We are of opinion that the claims in litigation are bad for indefiniteness…

        United Carbon Co. v. Binney & Smith Co., 317 U.S. 228, 63 S. Ct. 165, 87 L. Ed. 232 (1942).

      2. 10.1.2

        “Spaced” to achieve a balance in EMG signals are indefinite per United Carbon. A structure may not be described in terms of its result.

        1. 10.1.2.1

          “Spaced” to achieve a balance in EMG signals are indefinite per United Carbon. A structure may not be described in terms of its result.

          Ned, with all due respect, that’s a ridiculous over-reading of United Carbon. Nowhere did that opinion say that “a structure may not be described in terms of its result.” Indeed, there was no “result” in the claims:

          1. Sustantially (sic) pure carbon black in the form of commercially uniform, comparatively small, rounded, smooth aggregates having a spongy or porous interior.

          The problem with the United Carbon claim is that there was no standard anywhere for determining what “commercially uniform” and “comparatively small” meant.

          That’s quite different than the Biosig claim, which, by the way, did not recite “spaced to achieve a balance in EMG signals.”

          1. 10.1.2.1.1

            DanH, I quote the relevant portions of United Carbon at post 10.1.1 where the court describes just how one, in that case, determined whether several claim limitations were present – build one and make adjustments ’til it worked.

            This, they said, violated the rule against functional claiming:

            “So read, the claims are but inaccurate suggestions of the functions of the product, and fall afoul of the rule that a patentee may not broaden his claims by describing the product in terms of function.”

            So, United Carbon does prohibit claiming by result.

            And, the Federal Circuit here endorses what United Carbon prohibits.

            The Federal Circuit has no recourse now but to take this panel decision en bank and reverse it.

            1. 10.1.2.1.1.1

              Of course, Ned neglects to incorporate the actual changes brought about by the act of 1952…

              (Nothing new here either)

            2. 10.1.2.1.1.2

              So, United Carbon does prohibit claiming by result.

              No, it doesn’t. Read what you just posted. It prohibits claims that are but “inaccurate suggestions of the functions of the product.” These claims were invalid because they were overly vague, not because they recited “functions.”

              1. 10.1.2.1.1.2.1

                DanH, read that again, please.

                “So read, the claims are but inaccurate suggestions of the functions of the product, and fall afoul of the rule that a patentee may not broaden his claims by describing the product in terms of function.”

                What “rule” did the claim fall afoul of and why?

                1. There is absolutely no doubt that Rich was hostile to Halliburton, as was the entire bar if one reads the congressional testimony. But Rich could not and did not overrule the Supreme Court.

                  United Carbon is still good law. One can cite it and rely on it.

                2. You continue to dissemble Ned by attempting to blame Rich when it is the words of Congress that is your undoing.

                  Tell me again which branch of the government was given authority in the constitution to write patent law…

                  Why do you think I keep asking you to watch The Paper Chase and note the key words of wisdom at the hour and six minute mark? (Hint: you really need to stop abusing the notion of the Supreme Court being above the law)

                3. Ha – I did overlook the second half of the quote, Ned. Mea culpa. That said, however, that statement is something of a non sequitur, as there were no “functions” in the claims. Also, the “rule” appears to be against “broadening” claims – I’m not sure what that means.

                  Do you have an even more ancient case that lays out this “rule”?

                4. DanH, Start with Morse, claim 8, then go to Westinghouse v Boyden Power Brake (claim 2), Perkins Glue, General Electric v. Wabash Appliance, Faulkner v. Gibbs.

                  From Westinghouse,

                  “This rule was clearly laid down in the leading case of Corning v. Burden, 15 How. 252, in which Mr. Justice Grier, delivering the opinion of the court, drew the distinction between such processes as were the result or effect of “chemical action, by the operation or application of some element or power of nature, or of one substance to another,” and the mere result of the operation of a machine, with regard to which he says:

                  “It is for the discovery or invention of some practicable method or means of producing a beneficial result or effect that a patent is granted, and not for the result or effect itself. It is when the term `process’ is used to represent the means or method of producing a result that it is patentable, and it will include all methods or means which are not effected by mechanism or mechanical combinations.

                  “But the term `process’ is often used in a more vague sense, in which it cannot be the subject of a patent. Thus we say that a board is undergoing the process of being planed, grain of being ground, iron of being hammered or rolled. Here the term is used subjectively or passively as applied to the material operated on, and not to the method or mode of producing that operation, which is by mechanical means, or the use of a machine, as distinguished from a process.”

                  “In this use of the term it represents the function of a machine, or the effect produced by it on the material subjected to the action of the machine. But it is well settled that a man cannot have a patent for the function or abstract effect of a machine, but only for the machine which produces it.”

                  From Perkins Glue:

                  “That the patentee may not by claiming a patent on the result or function of a machine extend his patent to devices or mechanisms not described in the patent is well understood. O’Reilly v. Morse, 15 How. 62, 112, 113; Knapp v. Morss, 150 U.S. 221, 228; Electric Signal Co. v. Hall Signal Co., 114 U.S. 87; Westinghouse v. Boyden Power Brake Co., 170 U.S. 537; Mitchell v. Tilghman, 19 Wall. 287; Fuller v. Yentzer, 94 U.S. 288; Risdon Iron & Locomotive Works v. Medart, 158 U.S. 68. ”

                  Cf., Application of Tarczy-Hornoch, 397 F.2d 856 (C.C.P.A. 1968)(Rich, J.) that stopped its summary of at Westinghouse and Risdon, and did not discuss Perkins Glue, Wabash Appliance, United Carbon, Halliburton, or Faulkner. There is a reason for this and it appears as follows:

                  “The notion of undue breadth in the claims may be consistent with the proscription of claims directed merely to effects or results. See O’Reilly v. Morse, supra. The “mere function of the machine” cases, however, have clearly regarded the question as whether the processes at bar were within the statutory classes of invention. The emphasis has never been on the claims but always on the processes. The inquiry has been into whether these are “proper subjects” for a patent after a reference, more often than not, to the celebrated observation in Corning v. Burden, supra, that although it is included under the general term useful art, “a process eo nomine is not made the subject of a patent” by our laws. See, e. g., In re Weston, supra. 868*868 Furthermore, during the entire gestation period of the “function of the apparatus” objection, the patent statutes contained the following or a similar provision:[19]

                  [The inventor] shall particularly point out and distinctly claim the part, improvement, or combination which he claims as his invention or discovery.
                  The provision, indistinguishable for our purposes from the present statute,[20] was never referred to at all, as far as we know, in the elaboration of the “function of the apparatus” rejection.”

                  Had Rich actually cited Perkins Glue, Wabash Appliance, or United Carbon, he would’ve found that the cases relied on indefiniteness the cold the claims invalid. It was not simply a 101 issue as Rich contended.

                  Returning to Perkins Glue:

                  “Respondent argues that this principle, applicable to machine patents, is inapplicable to a patent for the composition of matter which is always a result of a process and concededly is patentable as such, but the attempt to broaden product claims by describing the product exclusively in terms of its use or function is subject to the 258*258 same vice as is the attempt to describe a patentable device or machine in terms of its function. As a description of the invention it is insufficient and if allowed would extend the monopoly beyond the invention.”

                  It is in this sense that the Court has confined the rule to what is today 112(b).

                5. I think we’re traveling in circles, Ned. I agree with you that a claim that “merely” (i.e., only) claims a result is invalid. That’s a far cry from saying, as some seem to want to do, that you can’t claim a machine using functional terms to describe aspects of its structure.

                  Biosig’s claim is not directed to a mere result, and doesn’t look anything like the United Carbon, Morse, Halliburton, etc., claims:

                  1. A heart rate monitor for use by a user in
                  association with exercise apparatus and/or
                  exercise procedures, comprising:
                  an elongate member;
                  electronic circuitry including a difference
                  amplifier having a first input terminal of a first
                  polarity and a second input terminal of a second
                  polarity opposite to said first polarity;
                  said elongate member comprising a first half and
                  a second half;
                  a first live electrode and a first common electrode
                  mounted on said first half in spaced relationship
                  with each other;
                  a second live electrode and a second common
                  electrode mounted on said second half in spaced
                  relationship with each other;
                  said first and second common electrodes being
                  connected to each other and to a point of common
                  potential . . . .

                6. DanH, I take it that you have yet to read Faulkner v. Gibbs. There the Supreme Court made it clear that in combination claims that they do not object to functionally claimed elements describing machines. They do care however where a claim has a point of novelty and that point of novelty is functionally claimed in terms of how the machine operates or in terms of desired results. This is where they draw the line.

                  The problem in the Nautilus case is that the only thing new in the claim is the idea of adjusting the spacing on the grips in order to cancel out the EMG signals. But the specification is completely silent on any method or means of adjusting anything in the grips to make the EMG signals of each hand equal. In fact, as I have noted before, the specification discloses only the prior art structures and circuits and simply says that the signals coming off the two grip electrodes are equal in terms of their EMG signals.

                  As to others who generally oppose functionally claiming any element, regardless of whether it is new or old, I do not agree with their position. When I see the Federal Circuit applying a very narrow and cramped construction to any functionally claim element regardless of whether it is at the point of novelty or not, I get very sick to my stomach. It is clear that the Federal Circuit does not know what it is doing, and that is because it has failed to even acknowledge the existence of such cases as Halliburton and Faulkner.

                  Perhaps it is also the fault of the bar who, like our friend anon, thinks that Halliburton was overruled by 112(f). But of course it was not.

                  Moreover, that statute is optional by its own terms. Thus one can claim a novel element functionally if one employees 112(f). But, the choice of whether to employ the benefits of that statute in terms of protecting against invalidity is the choice of the applicant. They must use the magic words.

                  But if a claim, not using means plus function, nevertheless is functional at the point of novelty, it is indefinite.

                7. Ned,

                  Your “version” or characterization of BOTH the law and my view of the law is flat out wrong.

                  In no way is the concept I (repeatedly) tell you about limited merely to 112(f).

                  I have been abundantly clear on this point.

                  It is your (continued) mistake to think that the use of language sounding in functional terms is so limited. I have used your own preferred source of Federico to show that you are plainly wrong.

                  Please stop this mischaracterizarion.

              2. 10.1.2.1.1.2.2

                (Ned’s views require adding in the canard of Point of Novelty) as well as dissection of claims an isolation of any functional language, breaking apart combination claims in order to treat what he finds “offensive” as if that singular portion was the only “real” portion of the claim (with all else somehow being like a Jepson claim, and separate from “the real invention”).

                One should note the similarity of this type of “divining the real invention” with the Supreme Court’s “Gist/Abstract” sword treatment of “Gisting” away any “undesired” claim elements in order to arrive at a desired end state of finding “the real invention” to be some “Abstract Idea,” because those durn scriviners were just too clever to actually hew to the written words of Congress.

                1. Unfortunately, anon, the Supreme Court cases long recognized that one could not patent a result, and centered its objection on 112(b).

                  Like Rich, you consistently try to divert attention. It will not work.

                2. Again Ned it is you that attempts to divert attention by aiming at Judge Rich when you need to pay attention to what Congress did in 1952.

                  As has been abundantly noted, you continue to attempt to quote pre-1952 cases as if there was no change by Congress in 1952.

                3. What Rich was trying to do was to find a statutory basis for everything. That much is apparent.

                  But in reading Tarczy-Hornock, where he pointedly left off his review prior to Perkins Glue, one can also see that he did not care for the functional-at-the-point of novelty line of cases at all.

                  Ditto, Hotel Security.

                  Ditto, Benson, etc.

      3. 10.1.3

        It seems to me that given that the subject claim limitation has qualifying words other than simply “spaced apart” then there is some limitation on the spacing but the problem with the claim is that we cannot determine what that limitation is and thus what infringes and that which does not infringe. Whether the claim is to vague structure or to results for which no structure is specified in the claim, the result is the same — no certainty as to scope.

        1. 10.1.3.1

          John, while you certainly can what spacing is needed in a particular exercise machine if you build one and make adjustments until the EMG signals are balanced. However, under United Carbon, such a claim is indefinite.

          I cannot understand how the Federal Circuit can continue to ignore the Supreme Court. But it does so time and again.

          1. 10.1.3.1.1

            I cannot understand how

            As has been pointed out many times Ned, your choice of willful blindness as to what Congress did in 1952 and your (rather unholy) abject worship of the Supreme Court and their addiction to putting fingers in the 101 nose of wax is a bug and not a feature of your “understanding” of patent law concepts.

      4. 10.1.4

        Ned: Yes, John, any spacing that works is covered.

        I believe that’s incorrect, Ned.

        The claim term “spaced relationship” was construed to mean “neither infinitesimally small nor greater than the width of a user’s hands”.

        1. 10.1.4.1

          Excellent point, Malcolm. Why of course.

          So I build an exercise machine with a pair of electrodes spaced apart by 7 inches, greater than the span of known human beings, and make adjustments to the EMG signals according to other means and methods, I can be determined to be infringing if I someone can find a human being with a large hand spanning 7 inches.

          Why of course. This makes a lot of sense. Way to go Federal Circuit.

          1. 10.1.4.1.1

            You do recognize your own contradiction in your false response, right Ned?

            See In re Orthokinetics

          2. 10.1.4.1.2

            > So I build an exercise machine with a pair of electrodes spaced apart by 7 inches, greater than the span of known human beings, and make adjustments to the EMG signals according to other means and methods, I can be determined to be infringing if I someone can find a human being with a large hand spanning 7 inches.

            Of course, your “exercise machine” would only infringe if it also includes every other element of the claim (see below).

            And if it fully meets that definition, then it should absolutely be found to infringe – because it would be clear that the designer has basically taken the invented product, and stapled it onto an exercise machine.

            All of this manufactured ambiguity about “spaced relationship” only matters if the other 99% of the claim – i.e., the part that recites the actual invention – indisputably describes the product. Doesn’t this raise any yellow flags for you, Ned?

            1. 10.1.4.1.2.1

              Well, it turns out David, that under the formula decided by the Federal Circuit, all exercise machines long on the market, and in public use infringe, because such machines with multiple grips, spaced electrodes and the same circuit have long been on the market and in public use. Everybody infringes. Gotta love the Federal Circuit here.

              1. 10.1.4.1.2.1.1

                > because such machines with multiple grips, spaced electrodes and the same circuit have long been on the market and in public use.

                Only if they have the same circuit – including, specifically, a difference amplifier (not merely “an amplifier, and not “a differential amplifier”), with opposite-polarity terminals connected to the left handle and right handle, where the differencing amplifier outputs a signal difference in the ECG and EMG signals between the left hand and right hand.

                As demonstrated, at the time of filing, this was a novel circuit for a specific technique. That’s why Biosig got a patent on it. And, yes, everyone who uses that specific circuit, specifically including that difference amplifier (not a differential amplifier) with those connections, infringes the patent.

                Because… that’s how patents work.

                1. Check the Fujisaki reference cited in the reexam.

                  Same physical structure and same circuits.

    1. 10.2

      > Of course one of ordinary skill in the art could determine spacing of the sensors but how would that engineer know if that spacing was within or without the protected spacing range.

      Easy: if the live electrode and the common electrode (having the “spaced relationship”) can pass current in a way that allows the invention to work, then that limitation of the claim is satisfied.

      The entire point of this invention is the circuit that interprets electromyogram signals. Obviously those signals are collected from a patient by a communicating pair of electrodes. That is the sole purpose of the electrodes.

      In this context – the “spaced relationship” part of the claim is utterly irrelevant to the invention. It is not relied on for novelty, non-obviousness, or 101 eligibility – all of those requirements, and the entire point of the invention, is recited elsewhere in the claim.

      This entire incident is Nautilus’s attempt to play games with the patent – to steal the invention, and then dodge infringement by playing games by manufacturing confusion around an irrelevant part of the claim. This is all courtroom razzle-dazzle, reminiscent of Bill Clinton’s “it depends on what ‘is’ is” shtick, or the “Chewbacca” defense.

      1. 10.2.1

        David, read the reexamination history. You will find your thinking on what the invention is to be slightly different than what you say here.

        The identical circuits were used in the prior art.

        The two grips with spaced electrodes with the same circuit were used in the prior art.

        There was nothing in the specification about adjusting anything to achieve a balance in the EMG signals.

        The specification did not disclose anything at all in terms of novel structure or circuits.

        What was disclosed was the “appreciation” that the EMGs signals were causing the interference problem. But what was disclosed in terms of structure and circuits was the same as what the prior art disclosed.

        So, what invention did the specification actually disclose?

        1. 10.2.1.1

          Ned,

          If everything is identical as you say, then the proper legal doctrine of inherency would suffice.

          Perhaps it is not David that is misreading things…

        2. 10.2.1.2

          > What invention did the specification actually disclose?

          Here’s the invention (this is the Supreme Court’s summary):

          The patent in dispute, U. S. Patent No. 5,337,753 (’753
          patent), issued to Dr. Gregory Lekhtman in 1994 and
          assigned to respondent Biosig Instruments, Inc., concerns
          a heart-rate monitor for use during exercise. Previous
          heart-rate monitors, the patent asserts, were often inaccurate
          in measuring the electrical signals accompanying
          each heartbeat (electrocardiograph or ECG signals). The
          inaccuracy was caused by electrical signals of a different
          sort, known as electromyogram or EMG signals, generated
          by an exerciser’s skeletal muscles when, for example, she
          moves her arm, or grips an exercise monitor with her
          hand. These EMG signals can “mask” ECG signals and
          thereby impede their detection.

          Dr. Lekhtman’s invention claims to improve on prior art
          by eliminating that impediment. The invention focuses on
          a key difference between EMG and ECG waveforms: while
          ECG signals detected from a user’s left hand have a polarity
          opposite to that of the signals detected from her right
          hand, EMG signals from each hand have the same polarity.
          The patented device works by measuring equalized
          EMG signals detected at each hand and then using circuitry
          to subtract the identical EMG signals from each
          other, thus filtering out the EMG interference.

          That seems like a completely clear concept. Now, principally, how is that result achieved? What parts of the claim carry out that invention?

          …electronic circuitry including a difference amplifier having a first input terminal of a first polarity and a second input terminal of a second polarity opposite to said first polarity;

          wherein, said elongate member is held by said user with one hand of the user on said first half contacting said first live electrode and said first common electrode, and with the other hand of the user on said second half contacting said second live electrode and said second common electrode;

          whereby, a first electromyogram signal will be detected between said first live electrode and said first common electrode, and a second electromyogram signal, of substantially equal magnitude and phase to said first electromyogram signal will be detected between said second live electrode and said second common electrode;

          so that, when said first electromyogram signal is applied to said first terminal and said second electromyogram signal is applied to said second terminal, the first and second electromyogram signals will be subtracted from each other to produce a substantially zero electromyogram signal at the output of said difference amplifier;

          and whereby a first electrocardiograph signal will be detected between said first live electrode and said first common electrode and a second electrocardiograph signal, of substantially equal magnitude but of opposite phase to said first electrocardiograph signal will be detected between said second live electrode and said second common electrode;

          so that, when said first electrocardiograph signal is applied to said first terminal and said second electrocardiograph signal is applied to said second terminal, the first and second electrocardiograph signals will be added to each other to produce a non-zero electrocardiograph signal at the output of said difference amplifier;

          That’s how it works. Capture the signals, feed them into the difference amplifier, get the filtered result.

          Notice what’s missing from that entire description? I’ll tell you: where the electrodes are, i.e., the physical proximity of the live electrode and the common electrode in each hand. Why is it missing? Because it’s irrelevant to the invention. As long as the electrodes capture the signal from each hand, the invention can operate on it.

          The reexam fully supports that fact. During reexam, the inventor said: “Look, the position of the electrodes on the hand doesn’t matter. You can use many variations in the electrode type, shape, size, placement, whatever. Any configuration that gives you a decent signal will work fine.”

          And out of that statement, Nautilus has tried to manufacture “ambiguity” about the invention. This argument is courtroom razzle-dazzle, which is why it has failed.

          1. 10.2.1.2.1

            Still, David, the prior art disclosed the two grips, the spaced electrodes, and the very same circuit as did the patent.

            Tell me once again, what structure or method in specification is new?

            Patents are not awarded for discovery of a law of nature — the EMG signals. Patents are awarded for some new technology.

            The inventor here described nothing new in terms of structure or method or materials. Nothing at all.

            Where is the invention?

            1. 10.2.1.2.1.1

              > Still, David, the prior art disclosed the two grips, the spaced electrodes, and the very same circuit as did the patent.

              You keep asserting this point about the prior art teaching “the very same circuit.”

              Well, I’m calling your bluff.

              The file wrapper, available via Public PAIR, indicates that the originally filed claims were identical to the issued claims up to the end of the “display device” clause. Those original claims include the entire structural description of the circuit.

              The independent claims were rejected, once, under 35 USC 103, in view of Cutter (U.S. Patent No. 4,319,581). Cutter discloses an electronic monitoring circuit comprising “an amplifier” and “a counter” that count pulses. That’s all it does: it just counts waves. Cutter recites nothing about the concept of subtracting the signal from each hand. Cutter recites nothing about a “differencing amplifier,” nor that the signals received by electrodes received for each hand are connected to different terminals. You’ll recall that this differencing is the central point of Biosig’s invention.

              In response to the rejection, the applicant amended the claims to add the “whereby” clauses. You’ll note that the “whereby” clauses do not change the (originally claimed) structural recitation of the circuit – they only describe, more specifically, how these components interoperate.

              The examiner issued a final rejection with only a 112 rejection – no art-based rejection here. The applicant submitted an after-final amendment with the final few additions (the “calculating” means). These claims were allowed by the examiner.

              That is: The closest prior art that was cited does not cover the originally disclosed and claimed circuit. All the applicant did to traverse the closest prior art is to explain what a circuit with that configuration does.

              Of course, this is why Nautilus did not raise arguments about patent invalidity due to anticipation or obviousness, but instead ventured down the “let’s manufacture ambiguity about ‘spaced relationship'” path.

              1. 10.2.1.2.1.1.1

                From what I remember David is somewhat close in his analysis, but there was somewhat of a bit of a wrinkle not accounted for in you guy’s instant discussion. Sorry I can’t remember what it was off hand.

              2. 10.2.1.2.1.1.2

                David, the differential amplifier 40 disclosed in the ‘581 reference is the same as a differential amplifier 29 disclosed in the 5,337,753 patent. The circuits in both the reference in the patent after the differential amplifier do the same thing, count pulses.

                What the ‘753 patent discloses that if the signals coming into the differential amplifier have equal EMG signals, the output of the differential amplifier will include no pulses attributable to EMG signals. But neither will the prior art circuit. There is no difference at the circuit level between the patent and the reference.

                1. > David, the differential amplifier 40 disclosed in the ‘581 reference is the same as a differential amplifier 29 disclosed in the 5,337,753 patent.

                  Ned… did you actually read the ‘581 patent?

                  First: Cutter, the ‘581 reference, does not disclose a a differential amplifier. It discloses: an amplifier.

                  There are actually dozens of configurations of amplifiers, and they all do different things. As luck would have it, I’m currently studying for an electrical engineering final exam that covers some of the more basic configurations of operational amplifiers. Here’s a link to a Javascript application that I wrote that shows just some of them. (To demonstrate why details matter: the “differential” amplifier that you mis-cited is completely different from the “differencing” amplifier that Biosig’s patent actually includes.)

                  Second: Cutter does not use an amplifier for the same reason as the Biosig patent. Cutter simply uses an amplifier for its most straightforward purpose: to amplify the signal. Biosig’s patent uses a differencing amplifier to calculate a difference between two signals, to carry out the EMG vs. ECG observation.

                  Can’t Cutter’s device circuit do the same? No, because the amplifier is not configured as a differencing amplifier. It only takes in a signal, and… amplifies it.

                  Q.E.D.

                  This really couldn’t be more black-and-white, Ned. You’re going to have to acknowledge defeat on this one.

                2. Not going to happen David.

                  Not even in this particular case, and certainly not in any meaningful way that just even might impugn Ned’s windmill quests.

                  He has been on his crusade for far too long to let the truth get in the way.

                3. David, the Cutter reference is not as good as Fujisaki US4444200 cited in reexam 90/010,366. This references discloses two grips, spaced electrodes connected in the same manner to a differential amplifier.

                4. Fujisaki is certainly a much better reference – and, yes, it does teach a differential amplifier.

                  However, in response to Fujisaki, the applicant submitted arguments (without amendment). The examiner agreed and issued a reexam certificate.

                  How is that possible if Fujisaki teaches “the same circuit?” Because it doesn’t. Here is the applicant’s argument, which the examiner found persuasive:

                  In Fujisaki, one electrode for each hand is active and the other is a common ground. With the device in use during exercise on a machine, the left active electrode would detect a faint ECG wave form traveling form the heart to the left palm, and a strong EMG wave form potential between the left active leectrode and the left ground. Similarly, the right active electrode would detect substantially the same faint ECG wave form but of opposite polarity and a strong EMG wave form potential between the right active electrode and the right ground. Whereas the ECG wave forms on the left and right palms at the machine handle are substantially equal and of opposite polarity, the EMG wave forms are of the same polarity but different on the left and right palms. Although the purpose of the difference amplifier of Fujisaki is to cancel input signals that are of the same potential, magnitude and phase, while amplifying signals that are of opposite polarity, magnitude, and phase, the EMG signals on the two active electrodes cannot be cancelled because they are not of the same magnitude and phase. … Because the EMG wave forms manifested at the left and right hands are not equal, the fact that the two active electrodes of the Fujisaki patent provide the input tot he difference amplifier and the two inactive electrodes are connected to a common potential does not overcome this inequality in EMG contribution, so the EMG contributions are neither equal nor cancelled.

                  Neither Fujisaki nor any prior art of record teaches or suggests that the EMG signals as detected from the palms of a human grasping electrodes while exercising, could be attenuated or cancelled by a difference amplifier to the extent of substantially zero. Only in the heart rate monitor disclosed in Owner’s patent are the detected right EMG and detected left EMG signals close enough in magnitude and phase to effectively cancel out in the difference amplifier.

                  So, this raises the question: What’s in the patent, and the disclosure, that achieves this result?

                  Well… that’s where your argument starts to gain some traction, Ned, because the disclosure is pretty weak about this. There is some further explanation in the reply to the non-final office action:

                  It is submitted that claim 1 distinguishes from the teachings of the Cutter patent by defining the electrode arrangements (the first live electrode and the first common electrode; the second live electrode and the second common electrode) on either half of the elongate member. … Only with such electronic connections is it possible to eliminate noise, which includes signals of substantial equal amplitude and equal phase on each set of electrodes, and the effects on muscle artifact, which also have equal magnitude and equal phase signals on both sets of electrode.
                  If that were the end of it, I’d say that your arguments have some validity, Ned.

                  However, there is one additional key difference between Fujisaki’s circuit and Biosig’s circuit – one that reflects both a structural difference, and a difference in the inventive concept (again citing the applicant’s argument that prompted a reexam certificate):

                  The ECG signal is masked by strong EMG signals on the hands during exercise on the machines, adn the spectrum of the EMG signal is close to the spectrum of the “R” wave of the ECG signal. Conventional thinking based on ambulatory heart rate measurement was to pass the detected wave forms through a difference amplifier to reduce noise, and then capture the important part of the amplified ECG signal with a band pass filter. Although Fujisaki appreciated that the difference amplifier was to reduce noise while amplifying the ECG waveform, there is no indication in Fujisaki that he appreciated the special problems posed by the strong and unequal EMG waveforms relative to the weak but equal and opposite ECG waveforms as manifested in the hands. Under these circumstances, the use of a difference amplifier and bandpass filter is inefficient, because the filtering degrades the quality of the ECG signal and reduces the signal to noise ratio of ECG/EMG.

                  So, that’s the difference – structural and functional. Fujisaki uses a differencing amplifier to amplify the ECG difference and a band-pass filter to reduce noise, but this configuration has the side-effect of also capturing and amplifying noise caused by the EMG signal. Biosig’s inventor appreciated the effect of EMG, and therefore not only adjusted the positioning of the electrodes, but also relied on amplification by the differencing amplifier to cancel out the EMG.

                  Put another way: Fujisaki’s circuit amplifies the entire signal – both the EMG and ECG components – and then tries to filter out the ECG component, but this is futile because the EMG component already overwhelms the ECG component. In Biosig’s circuit, the differencing amplifier simultaneously cancels the EMG (same-phase, opposite-polarity) contribution of each signal and amplifies the ECG component.

                  Seems completely persuasive to me that Biosig’s circuit is structurally different from Fujisaki’s. It was also persuasive with the examiner – and presumably to Nautilus, which apparently didn’t even raise it in litigation, but chose the indefiniteness / “spaced relationship” aspect of attack.

      2. 10.2.2

        This entire incident is Nautilus’s attempt to play games with the patent – to steal the invention,

        David,

        You keep on cutting through the smoke like that, and how are the Infringer’s Rights groups get to weaken patent law further?

    2. 10.3

      and that the attempts to reconcile past Federal Circuit indefiniteness decisions with the Supreme Court’s clear standard are in vain.

      Oh, I don’t know about that / there does appear to be a shiny new coat of paint on the subject.

  5. 9

    Indulge me in a 10000 foot view question.

    Imagine someone invents a process, which is truly inventive: new, useful, and unobvious, which is essentially a combination of functions.

    Imagine now an unimaginative parasitical manufacturing corporation which discovers the inventor’s inventive method, and decides to try to profit from the fruits of the inventor’s labor by manufacturing and selling a device which performs his inventive method of functions.

    Should the inventor be able to, over and above being granted a patent with valid method and process claims to his invention, have the right to exclude the corporation from manufacturing and selling devices which are specifically designed to perform the inventive combination of functions, i.e. the process?

    If so, what would be wrong with allowing him to have, explicit recourse to some form of broad apparatus claims, based on function, in order to obtain a correlatively broad scope of monopoly directly against those devices?

    Why must we force him to wade into the area of inducement liability when he could have apparatus claims to directly address the issue?

    1. 9.1

      While I recognize that you are indulging in a 10,000 ft view – in part in rebuttal to Ned’s odd views, I would clarify (as if there were any real doubt), that just as the idea of software is not the same as software, the idea of process should not be confused with software. Software is a manufacture and machine component. Enacting and using software may be the process.

      Clearly, keeping those who would seek to confuse from doing so is critical.

      1. 9.1.1

        I’m disappointed by the lack of any response.

        With so many here having such strongly held views on matters such as “functionally claiming apparatuses”, I would have assumed my post would have provided the perfect opportunity for someone to prove his or her case on principle.

        1. 9.1.1.1

          You assume that they can prove their case…

          Imagine how quiet this “ecosystem” would be if the lame0 stuff of the anti’s were curtailed.

        2. 9.1.1.2

          You might be disappointed but you can’t hardly be surprised.

          Shedding the pretense of generality, the argument is straight forward:

          1. The patentability of software inheres entirely in the process it implements. Period. Full stop.

          2. If that process is “truly inventive” (new [including nonobvious] and useful), then the combination of the process with a computer-readable medium causing a processor to perform a method, etc. is also new and useful.

          3. If the process is anticipated or obvious in view of the prior art, then the combination of the process with a computer-readable medium causing a processor to perform a method, etc. is obvious, if not inherent.

          If you could implement the process using “A Bunch of Rocks,” then implementing it in a process is obvious.

          1. 9.1.1.2.1

            Bleh … “in a process” should read “in a computer” …

          2. 9.1.1.2.2

            I am not interested in any purported species of my general question as embodied in the specific example of Software. It is the general principle I am interested in.

            1. 9.1.1.2.2.1

              Ok. That’s even easier.

              The general principal is that if your inventor didn’t claim the apparatus, then the method, inducement, and perhaps malpractice are her only claims.

                1. Actually, I answered exactly your question–in each of the last three sentences.

                  You get what you claim that is statutory, new, and useful.

                  Take your hypo:

                  1. A new and useful process;

                  2.A manufacturing corporation that “manufactur[es] and sell[s] a device which performs his inventive method of functions;” and,

                  3. The inventor “could have apparatus claims to directly address the issue.”

                2. Reading is hard when you don’t do it…

                  The questions were:

                  “If so, what would be wrong with allowing him to have, explicit recourse to some form of broad apparatus claims, based on function, in order to obtain a correlatively broad scope of monopoly directly against those devices?

                  Why must we force him to wade into the area of inducement liability when he could have apparatus claims to directly address the issue?”

                  Please feel free to answer with your opinion if you wish. If not, OK. Do not claim to have answered these questions when you clearly have not… it makes you look like… well I’ll get banned if I say it.

              1. 9.1.1.2.2.1.2

                I really don’t understand your question.

                There is nothing per se wrong with ‘allowing’ you to have the sort of claim you describe, so long as it meets the requirements of 101, 102, 103 and 112.

                What am I missing?

    2. 9.2

      Imagine someone invents a process, which is truly inventive: new, useful, and unobvious, which is essentially a combination of functions.

      You can’t invent a combination of functions. You can invent a process that performs concrete acts. You can, to some extent, expand those acts out to similar acts. You cannot expand the acts out to any other act that also achieves the result. There is no such thing as pure functional claiming, the law does not recognize that as an invention.

      Should the inventor be able to, over and above being granted a patent with valid method and process claims to his invention, have the right to exclude the corporation from manufacturing and selling devices which are specifically designed to perform the inventive combination of functions, i.e. the process?

      You can never prevent someone from achieving a result. Nobody has ever invented achieving a result. They have invented a particular means which causes a result to be achieved. The Wright Brothers didn’t invent flying, they invented a particular flying machine. People who make the same or similar flying machine infringe. People who achieve flight by different machines don’t. If Boeing came out with the 747 the day after Kitty Hawk, Boeing still produces its machine free and clear of the broadest claim that the Wright Brothers could validly make.

      1. 9.2.1

        By your comments you imply in the context of “functional claiming”, that what I (or anyone for that matter) mean by the term “function” is not a “concrete act”. What possible meaning could you reasonably ascribe to the term “function” in the context of functional claiming other than concrete acts?

        Observe, claiming a series of methods steps i.e. concrete acts, is claiming what is done in the process. Claiming an apparatus in functional language is claiming each bit of the apparatus in terms of the function of each bit i.e. in terms of what it does

        In a method claim, “drying the pressed grapes to a hydro-what-have-you level of 22%” can be functionally claimed in an apparatus claim “drying means for drying the pressed grapes to a hydro…” If you want to characterize drying as something other than a “concrete act” I suppose we are of such different minds that we have nothing further to discuss.

        A claimed process step is not claiming a result. An entire claimed process which is a combination of the various elements/steps can virtue of the results of one interacting, feeding into and building upon results of the other, lead to achievement of a unitary result for the entire method claim. This is not the same thing as saying each and every step is a “desired result”.

        Your entire argument about “function” being equivalent to non-concrete action and about achieving desired results rather than taking the necessary steps in a combination that leads to a unitary result, is a non sequitur.

        1. 9.2.1.1

          What possible meaning could you reasonably ascribe to the term “function” in the context of functional claiming other than concrete acts? Observe, claiming a series of methods steps i.e. concrete acts, is claiming what is done in the process. Claiming an apparatus in functional language is claiming each bit of the apparatus in terms of the function of each bit i.e. in terms of what it does

          Concrete acts are means, functional claiming is results. Acts go to “how” something is done. Functions go to “what” is achieved. They are, contrary to what you seem to argue, different things.

          Functional results necessarily follow from the use of concrete acts, but a particular concrete act is not implicated by a functional result. There’s only one way a bow uses a string to transform tension into a fired projectile. There’s multiple distinct ways of performing the function “firing a projectile,” most of which don’t involve string tension at all and others that do don’t use it in the manner that a bow does. Stating the acts makes it clear you’ve considered the act. Stating the functional result doesn’t make it clear you considered any particular acts at all. One cannot jump from the “species” of a concrete bow disclosure into the “genus” of result-based claiming (“firing a projectile”) without proof of possession and enablement of all the distinct species that make up the genus.

          If you describe a bow’s use by its acts its a disclosure of means that you necessarily are in possession of. If you describe a bow by its function it is a disclosure of known acts, of course, but also of unknown acts like using gunpowder. The problem of overbreadth occurs when someone who only invented the bow writes their claim in a manner that would find a gun infringing.

          1. 9.2.1.1.1

            I’m trying to understand what you are getting at.

            Let’s abstract away from any particular claim and presuppose that A, B, C, x, k1, J, k2, and z are such that the following is a valid patentable process claim. Please note when drafting we had in mind a particular process being carried out in reality, like that carries out in a factory or a processing plant.
            (note you can equate “doing A on/with” with “A’ing”)

            Claim 1 a method comprising:
            doing A on x producing k1, there being leftover x;
            doing B on k1 in context j generating k2;
            doing C with k2 and left over x resulting in z.

            Now, how would you draft a fully parallel apparatus claim in “functional” language? Keep in mind you are claiming a device/system claim which is intended to read on a device/system which actually performs THE method as above.

            Claim 1 An apparatus comprising:
            A means for doing A on x producing k1, there being leftover x;
            B means for doing B on k1 in context j generating k2;
            C means for doing C with k2 and left over x resulting in z.

            “doing A” in both contexts is an act performed by something, in the method claim it matters not what performs the act, whereas in the apparatus claim it tied to “A means”. “A means” is described functionally, i.e. it is described as being such that it is for “acting” to “do A”.

            What here would you say is a “functional result” as distinct from acts?

            1. 9.2.1.1.1.1

              What here would you say is a “functional result” as distinct from acts?

              Well your use of 112(f) clouds the issue because of the statutory construction of the phrase.

              “doing A” is either something that would immediately be identified as a particular set of acts or it wouldn’t. For example, if A is “hitting a home run” the steps in that procedure are generally all the same – the pitcher pitches the ball, the batter swings and the ball goes over the fence without having hit the ground.

              On the other hand, if A is “analyzing a court opinion” the manner in which I analyze is different from the manner you analyze which is different from other people’s analysis. In this case, you necessarily need further definition in the claim, either because 112(f) imports some of the spec automatically or because outside 112(f) you’ve added a wherein clause.

              While the baseball art wouldn’t view home runs as being distinct from each other (after all, they all generate the same number of runs), the legal art would certainly view certain analysis of opinions differently. Similarly, one who wanted to strike at his enemies from a distance would certainly find a distinction between the manner in which a bow, a gun and a rocket launcher achieve “firing a projectile.”

              When the art would draw a distinction in the acts that achieve the result, it is incumbent upon the applicant/patentee to describe the acts because the art appreciates that future inventors can improve over those acts. Congress lacks the power to grant other people’s inventions to an inventor, the inventor can only be granted his invention. When the art draws a distinction between the way two devices operate, each inventor gets his own. The use of result is an attempt to claim different modes of operation that you haven’t invented.

              “doing A” in both contexts is an act performed by something, in the method claim it matters not what performs the act, whereas in the apparatus claim it tied to “A means”

              It certainly matters to enablement whether “something” can perform the act, so you probably have to nominate something that’s doing it. Make a limitation that is only conventionally done by people and leave off the part of the limitation that a person performs it, and see how far you get when suing someone who invented a computer that did the same thing. The only thing you’re going to do is get your claim invalidated.

              1. 9.2.1.1.1.1.1

                see how far you get when suing someone who invented a computer that did the same thing.

                BTW, this isn’t to say that you can’t achieve what you’re wanting to achieve. If you are doing something that the art truly wouldn’t care about how it would be achieved, then you nominate a way of doing it (i.e. disclose a means) and equivalency will allow you to capture every other way of doing it.

      2. 9.2.2

        For clarity, process claims are valid. They claim acts, i.e. what is to be done, not a set of imaginary non-concrete acts, nor do they simply stipulate what one wants as a result without specifying how one is to achieve it … which is precisely what the steps tell you.

        It lays out in process steps, i.e. functionally, what actions, combined in what order acting on certain materials and forming certain products, etc. and to be clear the subject of the claim are not the materials upon which the processes act not the products made by the process, the subject matter of the claim is the process itself.

        Pure process.

        1. 9.2.2.1

          They claim acts, i.e. what is to be done,

          It depends on if “what is to be done” conjures a particular act or not.

          1. A non-transitory CRM comprising: instructions to receive variables associated with a dispute in a question for appeal, instructions to analyze the variables to determine what the Supreme Court would opine on the issue, and instructions to display a result of the analysis including an indication of which side is right.

          Phrases like “analyze” and “determine” are not concrete acts. There’s no one way to analyze. There are multiple concrete acts which could be considered an analysis. One could analyze in a very mundane manner – The court affirms 67% of the time, so the program rolls a 100 sided die and if its 67 or less it affirms. One could also analyze with a painstaking set of variables cultivated from years of study of each of the members of the Supreme Court to generate an opinion as comprehensive as an actual Court opinion. We can’t allow someone who does the mundane task of researching the 67% statistic to have a scope which shuts out the actually useful latter program.

          Claim 1 can never issue, regardless of what the underlying disclosure is, because no one person can lay claim to an otherwise unlimited “analysis” step.

          1. 9.2.2.1.1

            RandonGuy, I think it is clear (although not explicit) I was making reference to a method claim which could form the basis of a valid patent: i.e. each method step, would be upheld by the courts, is part of a valid patent claim, its method steps of “what is to be done” conjuring as much “particularity” of action as necessary (meets all the threshold tests which could have been applied to it).

            This is a general question about process claims and correlative apparatus claims which are claimed in functional terms and which mirror step by step the process claims.

            Inquiry into the general principle is in no way served by positing or discussing invalid, vague, unduly non-particular, method claims when trying to determine what should or should not be patentable as regards corresponding and parallel functionally claimed apparatus claims. OF COURSE an apparatus claim which mirrors an unsupported or invalid method claim should not be allowed.

            Software is not the subject of the post.

            If you do not care to address the questions posed that is perfectly fine. If you have an opinion regarding the general issue perhaps it would be appropriate to state it.

        2. 9.2.2.2

          “Anon2”: For clarity, process claims are valid.

          For clarity, some process claims are valid and many, many, many, many other process claims are neither valid or eligible for patenting.

          When you screw up that badly, Anon2, it’s really not worth reading the rest of your “arguments.”

          acting on certain materials and forming certain products

          What “material” is acted on by a mathematical equation? What “material” is acted on by logic? What “products” are formed by performing a statistical analysis on data?

          Consider: Data X correlates with likelihood Y. I claim “A process of determining the likelihood of Y by measuring X and determining the likehood of Y based on [insert correlation here].” What “material” is acted on? What “products” are formed?

          Or consider this: A process of showing you information.

          What “material” is acted on? What “products” are formed?

          1. 9.2.2.2.1

            MM

            I do believe I have seen glimpses, that indeed you are more than a “hammer” seeing everything as merely a nail, although your previous post has every indication that it is “hammer time”.

            If you would please indulge the actual question for a moment and step down from the soap box: the post does not mention software, it does not talk about claiming mathematics as such or anything of that nature… it should not get you bristling and all “activist” about your cause.

            Surely you believe some processes are patentable. Take the question as being about those processes. Given a valid claim to a process think about a perfectly parallel apparatus claim, which is claimed in functional terms, then address the question originally posed.

            If you are uninterested in having a potential discussion regarding the subject of the post by all means please ignore the post.

    3. 9.3

      Anon2, just to clarify: the sale of a machine that performs a patented process is an infringement under 217(c).

      I know Aro II imposed the requirement (5-4) that one must know that the infringement is patent infringement, and the court admitted doubt that that was congress’ intent. But the requirement of knowledge of infringement is there until we can persuade the Supreme Court to reverse itself or persuade Congress to amend the statutes to overrule Aro II. I have no idea why an organization like the AIPLA has not been knocking on the door of Congress consistently for the last 40+ years trying to reverse the Aro II. It does seem to suggest that the AIPLA may be conflicted on the issue.

      That is why folks have be trying to end-run 271(c) for very long time. IBM frankly admitted that the reason they came up with the idea of Beauregard claims was to end run 271(c).

      I cannot understand however why we tolerate these end-runs in specific cases like software, and do not try to solve the problem created by Aro II for everyone.

      However, until and unless Aro II is reversed one way or the other, it remains the law of the land. Evasions should not be either encouraged or tolerated.

      Thus a person sued for infringement for selling a machine useful in performing a process should only be liable if he knows that the machine is usable in an infringement of a patent.

      1. 9.3.1

        This is the closest thing to an intellectually honest attempt at answering the actual question posed.

        For that Ned, you are to be commended.

        1. 9.3.1.1

          Frankly Anon2, you commend Ned too readily, as “the closest thing” still falls woefully short of the reality that software is a manufacture in its own right and defined to be a machine component, and that there is a very real difference between the manufacture that is software and the software-in-use that is a process (note as well that Ned remains dishonest when it comes to realizing that FIRST any machine must be changed with the configuring of that machine BEFORE software can be “merely used” on the machine. Ned continues to gloss over this critical first action and wants to wave a magic wand over “old box” in order to have this very same “old box” to have a capability not there without the software component.

          Trying to bring Ned into the light step by step does not work, as I have tried to do this many many many times. The moment he realizes where the path leads, he abandons the conversation or ditches it into the weeds.

  6. 8

    I disagree with the assertedly inherent connection between functionality and indefiniteness. Indefiniteness means you don’t know what it is. Functionality means, whatever it is, it is defined by its function. The function can be defined definitely, or it can be defined indefinitely. Structure can be recited definitely or indefinitely.

    The two criteria are independent and do not inevitably implicate one another.

    Yes, functional claims can be overbroad; that’s really what got Samuel Morse’s claim invalidated: it claimed implementations of the function that he had not invented or enabled in his disclosure. But his claims were not indefinite. The Court knew what he claimed and simply did not think he should be allowed to have ownership for stuff he did not invent.

    1. 8.1

      I think that’s exactly right, SVG. Indefiniteness is a simple matter of whether the person of ordinary skill in the art can distinguish between those things that are covered by the claim and those things that are not. That seems as clear as ever given the Nautilus opinion.

      1. 8.1.1

        A Person [Having] Ordinary Skill In The Art (POSITA) in the field of the invention does not understand claims so he has no way of knowing what is covered by the claims.

        Most POSITAs will read the Abstract, think that is what you are saying you have invented, and be outraged.

        Some POSITAS will go on to read the Specification, think that is what you are saying you have invented (everything in the Specification), and be outraged.

        A few POSITAs will read the first claim (but only the preamble), think that is what you are saying you invented, and be outraged.

        The purpose of the POSITA is not to understand what is covered by the claims.

        The purpose of the POSITA is to build the invention (using the information in the Specification) without undue experimentation.

        How does the POSITA know what the invention is if he doesn’t understand the claims?

        Some one has to tell him what the invention is.

        It could be a Patent Attorney.

        It might be a Patent Examiner (but probably not).

        Eventually it will be a Court. Perhaps it will be many Courts telling him different things.

        But it is certainly not the POSITA’s job to know what is covered by the claims.

    2. 8.2

      I agree, too.

      I also think that technology has advanced to the point where sometimes you have to claim something using functional language. In electrical engineering, at one time we had discrete components. Now, we can fit thousands or millions of gates on a small area of silicon. Consider a memory controller. At one time, you might have been able to actually claim the circuitry for performing some function the memory controller does. Now, you have to claim the function the memory controller performs, as that function could be implemented with hundreds or thousands of gates and it would be impossible to claim the circuitry. He ck, the inventors probably don’t know what the circuitry is.

      1. 8.2.1

        In electrical engineering, at one time we had discrete components. Now, we can fit thousands or millions of gates on a small area of silicon.

        Other art units claim tiny stuff all the time.

        Grow up.

    3. 8.3

      I disagree. Morse’s claims may have encompassed embodiments that Morse did not conceive, but those embodiments fall under what Morse did invent. He claimed it after all. He must have understood that the embodiments were out there. Remember, the requirement is to disclose the preferred embodiment, not every embodiment.

      Others might invent improved or alternative embodiments and be entitled to patents for those. However, if they are standing on Morse’s shoulders, they need to send Morse a lil sumpin sumpin at least until Morse’s patents expire.

      1. 8.3.1

        Les, your comment addresses a point that I think the law wrestles with continually: How much beyond the specifically disclosed embodiments is the inventor allowed to have exclusive rights to?

        We used to say that in predictable technologies, inventors can claim as broadly as the prior art allows, but that in unpredictable technologies, they are confined by what they have enabled.

        And sometimes the doctrine of equivalents allows protection for uninvented, undisclosed, and unclaimed embodiments, such as in Graver Tank.

        These issues come up before the PTO in drafting claims and in the courts in enforcing them.

        And, apologies to Max, the same issues arise with more “central claiming” jurisdictions like the fabled EPO.

        1. 8.3.1.1

          Silicone, the policy is set forth in cases such as Halliburton. The bottom line is that one’s exclusive rights are bounded by what one discloses and equivalents thereof.

          Actually the Supreme Court requires that one claim only what one discloses and so that he must rely on the doctrine of equivalents. One cannot attempt to claim all possible equivalents by using functional language. That is clearly prohibited by not only Halliburton, but by the cases it relied on including United Carbon.

          With respect to old elements in a combination, however, the law is more generous. One can claim these functionally as it makes no real difference the form of the structure, only that there be structure that performs the recited function.

          While Halliburton discussed functional claiming of old elements, and also required that they be clear and definite, the later case of Faulkner v. Gibbs clarified the holding of Halliburton in that the only objection the Supreme Court was making was where the functional element was at the exact point of novelty. Implicitly therefore, the Supreme Court clarified that it was not making any objection to functionally claiming old elements.

      2. 8.3.2

        Morse’s claims may have encompassed embodiments that Morse did not conceive, but those embodiments fall under what Morse did invent.

        This sentence is self-contradictory.

        He claimed it after all. He must have understood that the embodiments were out there.

        Claiming something does not mean you have invented it. This was right in the case itself – the court pointed to the fact that he filed a later patent on a machine that prints at a distance. Either he invented all the machines that print at a distance originally, or he didn’t. Why the second application if he already invented it?

        Others might invent improved or alternative embodiments and be entitled to patents for those. However, if they are standing on Morse’s shoulders, they need to send Morse a lil sumpin sumpin at least until Morse’s patents expire.

        No, it’s just the opposite. If you have an alternative means of achieving the same result, not only do they not owe Morse anything, they have just proven Morse’s scope was overbroad.

        1. 8.3.2.1

          I invent the internal combustion engine.

          I claim and disclose:

          A cylinder;
          A piston movably positioned within the cylinder;
          and intake valve communicating with a fuel and air supply and a top of the cylinder. and exhaust valve,
          a spark means and a timing mechanism…

          I do not disclose an 8 cylinder internal combustion engine. Assuming, as I do, that an 8 cylinder engine is not obvious, in view of the single cylinder engine, someone else can invent and get a patent for that.

          Nevertheless, since the 8 cylinder engine includes all the components arranged as called for in my claim, that inventor would have to send me a royalty check in order to produce her engine.

          My claim encompasses her invention. My claim is not overly broad.

          Likewise with Morse.

          1. 8.3.2.1.1

            That’s not likewise with Morse. You disclosed and claimed a structure and you say “future structures that include my structures are liable.” That is often true.

            Morse invented a structure called a telegraph. If you produce a telegraph, even a telegraph with additional bells and whistles, you infringe Morse’s valid structural claims, because you have created the same structure disclosed and claimed (this is the true analogy of your example)

            Morse’s invalid claim, however, was functional – a machine that “prints at a distance.” If, on the other hand, you produced a computer connected to the internet, that computer will infringe Morse’s invalid functional claim, because it prints at a distance. But the structure of a computer and the structure of a telegraph and substantially different, and the fact that Morse lacked enablement or possession of the internet computer proves that Morse’s claim was overbroad. This was the point of the Morse decision, because the court said that if they allowed the functional language to stand it would encompass any number of unknown inventions that may, in fact, be better than the telegraph. That court was wise, because the internet computer IS better than the telegraph, and Morse doesn’t get to withhold the substantially different and better invention from the public.

            To return to your example, if Claim 1 instead said:

            1. An engine that ignites fuel to generate motion.

            Now the 8 cylinder ICE, which is not obvious in view of the one cylinder ICE, proves that the functionally defined claim scope is overbroad, because it infringes but there is no evidence (in fact, there’s a contrary holding) that the inventor of the one cylinder considered or enabled the 8 cylinder.

            Returning to why I say it is only “often true” – Look at Lizardtech. The first claim in Lizardtech was non-infringing because it had a limitation that wasn’t present in the infringer’s device. The second claim in Lizardtech omitted that limitation (thus making the device infringing) but in response the court found it lacked written description. Why? Because the non-inclusion of a limitation created a scope that was undescribed.

            In short, if the reason you find that the 8 cylinder is non-obvious is because one couldn’t enable an 8 cylinder based on the 1 cylinder’s disclosure, then you would have to add the limitation (by taking some of the limitations out of “comprising” language and making them “consisting” language) in order for the scope to be valid.

            If the 1 cylinder does not in fact enable the 8 cylinder, the 8 cylinder is going to take free and clear, because you don’t get an exclusionary right to something you don’t enable. A patent secures rights to an invention, you can’t patent what you don’t invent.

            1. 8.3.2.1.1.1

              I’m not too up on my ICE history, but to be clear, if the art was stuck on one cylinder because it couldn’t get multiple cylinders working in tandem, then the only way your Claim 1 would be valid is if the “a cylinder” limitation was a “consisting” limitation (or perhaps stated as “comprising a single cylinder”), because you haven’t disclosed enough to enable a multiple-cylinder engine. Once it’s seen as a consisting limitation, the inclusion of multiple cylinders would no longer be infringing. If you leave it as a comprising limitation such that your scope covers multi-cylinder engines when you haven’t enabled multi-cylinder engines, you just have a scope whose full range isn’t enabled and they have a 112(a) defense.

            2. 8.3.2.1.1.2

              “But the structure of a computer and the structure of a telegraph and substantially different, ”

              No they aren’t. The both send information over a wire. That is wan Morse invented.

              1. 8.3.2.1.1.2.1

                No they aren’t. The both send information over a wire. That is wan Morse invented.

                “Sending information over a wire” is a statement of general functionality. They don’t send information the same way at all – the internet uses protocol-based packets that store significant amounts of data and transmits thousands per second. Morse used a simple binary 0/1 electrical pulse sent on a nearly-second basis that is operated manually. The amount of data one can transfer over the internet in a given timeframe exceeds the amount of data one could telegraph by a factor of millions.

                That’s the point I’m making and you seem to miss, you can’t take two completely different technologies, find one obtuse, general area where they intersect and proceed to call them the same thing. You don’t call a pea shooter and a rocket launcher the same thing because they both fire projectiles. You’re no Michaelangelo because you’re both capable of drawing things. Things have to perform substantially the same function in substantially the same way.

                Why not go further? I mean Morse was just trying to find a way to communicate at a distance, so isn’t the telegraph merely obvious over a fire and blanket to send smoke signals? If you claimed his telegraph and I rejected it because the smoke signal/blanket was an equivalent system, would you accept that?

                At some point we have to agree that different things are different. If you can’t concede that a computer and a telegraph are different structurally and functionally, there’s simply nowhere for us to go.

            3. 8.3.2.1.1.3

              “If the 1 cylinder does not in fact enable the 8 cylinder, the 8 cylinder is going to take free and clear, because you don’t get an exclusionary right to something you don’t enable. A patent secures rights to an invention, you can’t patent what you don’t invent.”

              nope. The claim is open ended. The 8 cylinder version includes the stuff of the single cylinder version and can’t be made without a license.

              1. 8.3.2.1.1.3.1

                nope. The claim is open ended. The 8 cylinder version includes the stuff of the single cylinder version and can’t be made without a license.

                I’m not disputing whether the claim is open-ended or not. I’m disputing whether the claim would be valid if you chose to leave it open-ended.

                If your claim is open-ended and the specification does not enable an open-ended claim, your claim is unenabled and invalid. If the 8 cylinder embodiment isn’t enabled by the disclosure, what makes you think you can craft a valid claim that has a scope that reaches an 8 cylinder embodiment?

                1. I dare say 90% of non-chemical claims are open ended.

                  If my hypothetical claim is not valid for being open ended then all of those 90% are not valid either.

                2. If my hypothetical claim is not valid for being open ended then all of those 90% are not valid either.

                  That’s a glib analysis. If the art couldn’t have made a multi-cylinder ICE and the claim explicitly covered a multi-cylinder ICE then the scope would be invalid. Why do you think that by not explicitly covering it but still covering it by “comprising” it, that it suddenly becomes valid?

                  There’s simply no way to get around the fact that if an disclosure doesn’t enable an 8 cylinder ICE, and you build an 8 cylinder ICE, there’s no way you can be infringing.

                3. I’m not claiming a multi-cylinder ICE.

                  I’m claiming and engine with a cylinder/piston, intake and exhaust valves in it.

                  Does your engine have a cylinder/piston, intake and exhaust valves in it? Yes? Then you are building copies of my invention.

                  You can’t work around my patent by wrapping a lawn mower around the engine. Neither can you get around my patent by wrapping additional cylinders.

                  In fact, you probably owe me eight royalties, not just one.

                4. I’m claiming and engine with a cylinder/piston, intake and exhaust valves in it.

                  Yeah and you need to get off of the fact that because your claim only has the limitations it has that that’s the end of the issue Les.

                  It may have appeared to the examiner at the time he granted your patent that you had enabled and possessed that scope, and therefore he granted your patent, and that’s fine. But at some point you have initiate a suit against me if you want my money. When that happens I’m going to point to the fact that you couldn’t make what I made. And when you can’t make what I made it calls into question whether your scope was valid, because my argument is going to be that an 8 cylinder system is inherently different than a 1 cylinder system, and that’s evidenced by the fact that (for example) the art couldn’t make an 8 cylinder system work until I came along EVEN THOUGH they had the benefit of your disclosure. And then it will appear that the initial scope was in fact too broad and rather than me being liable the only thing that is going to happen is your scope will be found invalid.

                  Again, this goes back to the Morse situation. Morse tried to sue someone whose machine was too different from his own and the only thing that happened was that the scope that supposedly found that machine infringing was declared invalid. What you invented was a one cylinder engine. What you couldn’t do was an eight cylinder engine. Stop thinking about what your claim says and just ask yourself if the art would consider those the same thing. If the art wouldn’t consider them the same, you won’t have a valid scope that reaches me. You need to disabuse yourself of the notion that a good scrivener can magically make an inventor to have invented more than he did. If you couldn’t get an 8 cylinder to work and I could, I’m the inventor of the 8 cylinder machine, not you, and any claim scopes you have which say otherwise simply aren’t valid.

                5. “When that happens I’m going to point to the fact that you couldn’t make what I made. ”

                  You can make that argument, but you will be laughed our of court. Whether I can make what you made will not be at issue. What will be at issue is whether you are making WHAT I MADE.

                  Think of my claim as a check list against which potential infringing devices are measured.

                  The court will say: Does your device have a cylinder? – yes, 8 in fact. Does your device have a piston? yes – 8 infact. Does your device have an exhaust valve, and intake valve and a means for spark at the top of the cylinder? – yes times 8.

                  Then you are making Les invention in packages of 8, pay the man.

                6. Random,

                  You are confusing yourself by wanting to stick too closely to your “pet” views.

                  The situation is NOT about the “same thing,” and it is not even about (somehow shifting) scope of a first invention relative to a second invention.

                  It is about how any follow on invention, or improvement invention – of which the vast majority of inventions are of this type – can be practiced without permission of the first invention.

                  And the answer to that is a clear “No.”

                  This is why those seeking to have some sort of “must actually practice” type of requirement in U.S. Patent Law are doomed to failure.

                  Where you and Les are missing each other in conversation is that he is looking at your 8 cylinder “improvement” as a mere replication in number of his original invention, while you are looking at it as not a multiplied invention, but an improvement invention.

                  You are both off, but at least Les is closer to accuracy on the bigger picture.

                7. Think of my claim as a check list against which potential infringing devices are measured.

                  Again, that’s only relevant for infringement. And if you’re going to ignore the complete other half of the analysis then sure, I guess you have a point. Because the other half of the analysis is whether your checklist describes with reasonable certainty what you enabled and possessed. You’re going to run into a little trouble with that one, won’t you?

                  It is about how any follow on invention, or improvement invention – of which the vast majority of inventions are of this type – can be practiced without permission of the first invention.

                  Therein lies your problem though, doesn’t it? Because what constitutes a “follow on invention” as opposed to a “wholly different invention”? There’s already an answer for this anon, you should look it up.

                  I’ll help you out, the answer is right in Lizardtech – you can’t invent one engine and claim all other engines. You can invent an engine and claim all the engines that are enabled and described by your disclosure. If he makes a 1 cylinder engine, but fails to enable an 8 cylinder engine, he can’t generate a (valid) scope that reaches the 8 cylinder engine. This is where that abstraction bites you, because this is a good example of Les abstracting out, for example, the status of the cylinder being singular. That abstraction is what allows him to call my 8 cylinder engine infringing. Unfortunately, that same abstraction creates an enablement/description issue, since he has no way of showing that he enabled or posited multiple cylinder engines.

                  It is no different an analysis than if he had expressly put in a limitation “wherein the cylinder comprises 8 cylinders” – that would make it easier to see that there’s an enablement problem, but the enablement analysis would be the same.

                  Where you and Les are missing each other in conversation is that he is looking at your 8 cylinder “improvement” as a mere replication in number of his original invention, while you are looking at it as not a multiplied invention, but an improvement invention.

                  Oh no, he’s admitting there is a difference (and I’m proceeding on the viewpoint that the 1 doesn’t inherently enable the 8), he’s simply stating that the difference is irrelevant because I meet the actual text of his claim. Of course I meet the actual text of his claim. Unfortunately for him, his claim is only entitled to a presumption of validity and not a guarantee of validity.

                  And it’s not an improvement invention, it’s just an invention, which is where you go wrong. If his disclosure didn’t enable an 8 cylinder ICE, the law doesn’t say “close enough, pay the man.” There’s no difference between me inventing the first 8 cylinder ICE or the first fusion engine vis-a-vis Les’ 1 cylinder ICE because you can’t semi-enable something. Me standing on his shoulders to invent something new without having to pay him is the whole public utility of patent law.

                8. You can make that argument, but you will be laughed our of court. Whether I can make what you made will not be at issue. What will be at issue is whether you are making WHAT I MADE.

                  BTW Les, just so we’re clear about who is getting laughed out of court –

                  “Whether I can make what you made will not be at issue.”

                  I’m going to argue that you didn’t enable an 8 cylinder engine. You’re going to argue that I’m an infringer because (wait for it) your scope covers an 8 cylinder engine.

                  Now, will the question of whether you have enabled my engine be at issue?

                  You want a different scope for enablement than for infringement? Patent law doesn’t work that way my friend. Claims have only one scope, and you must enable the breadth of your claim. You want to construe the claims as being as broad as that, fine. You’ll just admit that they’re invalid.

        2. 8.3.2.2

          > If you have an alternative means of achieving the same result, not only do they not owe Morse anything, they have just proven Morse’s scope was overbroad.

          I have no idea what you mean here, Random.

          If by “alternative” you mean that I invented (ABC) but you solved the same problem using (ABD) – then yes, you don’t owe me anything, but your invention also has nothing to do with mine.

          If by “alternative” you mean that I invented (ABC) and you extended it as (ABCD) with some further advantage – then you’re still using my invention, aren’t you?

          1. 8.3.2.2.1

            I’m saying if you use ABC to cause result R, there’s no valid way to claim such that if I use GHI to result in R I would be liable to you.

            If your scope is limited to steps ABC I won’t infringe because I didn’t use ABC, I used GHI. If your scope claims R such that I would infringe, the scope will be found to be invalid because there’s no proof you’ve met 112(a) with respect to the full range of R because you haven’t proven you conceived of GHI.

            Any way you look at it, if your spec only posits ABC as a means of achievement, I’m completely safe performing GHI, regardless of what your claims say.

            If by “alternative” you mean that I invented (ABC) and you extended it as (ABCD) with some further advantage – then you’re still using my invention, aren’t you?

            Yes and no. As I just mentioned above, sometimes the non-inclusion of a limitation still causes 112(a) problems. If the only reason ABC is working is because of unstated thing E, and I perform ABC without E because I perform D, then I’ve enabled something you haven’t. I agree that the majority of times a claim on ABC will cause ABCD to attach liability.

            1. 8.3.2.2.1.1

              > If you use ABC to cause result R, there’s no valid way to claim such that if I use GHI to result in R I would be liable to you.

              Hmm. I’m interpreting your argument as opposing results-oriented claiming – like this: “A method of compressing data, comprising: compressing it losslessly with a compression rate of at least 25%.” I agree, but I only see those types of claims even being filed by pro-se inventors (and, of course, they’re never allowed).

              But since I don’t think you’re just tilting at windmills, I presume that you mean: any type of functional limitation. So let’s take this:

              “A method of compressing data, comprising:

              identifying, in the data, at least two instances of an identical data block;

              replacing the instances of the identical data block with a marker of a smaller size; and

              appending to the data a symbol table, comprising the identical data block and the marker.”

              That seems perfectly fine to me, but I imagine that you’re going to say that some part of this claim is the “R,” and the fact that it can be accomplished in hundreds of different ways means it’s not sufficiently specific. Am I right?

              1. 8.3.2.2.1.1.1

                That seems perfectly fine to me, but I imagine that you’re going to say that some part of this claim is the “R,” and the fact that it can be accomplished in hundreds of different ways means it’s not sufficiently specific. Am I right?

                That particular one doesn’t seem too bad because those are all simple acts. But take any software where it says “determining” or “analyzing” data without explaining exactly how it’s done, or using broad functional statements. You are correct that “hundreds of different ways” is the problem, but it’s not merely a question of how many ways but how many ways are distinct from each other. Not substantially similar means of achievement creates a problem because you have to prove enablement and possession of each of them.

                The example I usually use is that you can describe a bow by talking about the wood and string, or you can describe a bow by calling it a machine that fires projectiles. The latter is invalid because one can accomplish that machine functionality by multiple distinct ways (string tension, gunpowder, electricity, magnets etc).

                1. > That particular one doesn’t seem too bad because those are all simple acts.

                  Are they, though? Opinions may differ wildly about how to perform “identifying at least two instances of an identical block” in a performant way. There are literally thousands of ways of doing it – with various tradeoffs: speed, accuracy, memory conservation, specialization for particular types of data sets.

                  Same with how you represent the symbol table. Does it permit meta-blocks, where block (A) is composed of sub-blocks (B) and (C)? Is it structured so that it can be rewritten easily if the data changes?… etc.

                  And this is exactly my point. Opinions among PHOSITAs differ wildly as to what is “simple” and straightforward, and what is “abstract” or nebulous. There’s even an xkcd comic about that very principle.

                  So this raises the question: Should we be basing essential decisions about property rights on a subjective concept with widely varying opinions? We’re already doing that quite a lot (obviousness, “abstract,” etc.), and it’s not really getting us anywhere.

                2. Opinions may differ wildly about how to perform “identifying at least two instances of an identical block” in a performant way. There are literally thousands of ways of doing it – with various tradeoffs: speed, accuracy, memory conservation, specialization for particular types of data sets.

                  Then it’s invalid. You don’t get to disclose a crappy way of doing something and get protection for a better way of doing it. If you are telling me the art would appreciate (via speed, accuracy or memory conservation) a difference in the different means of performing the function then the patentee is limited to his disclosed means and not any other means.

                  And this is exactly my point. Opinions among PHOSITAs differ wildly as to what is “simple” and straightforward, and what is “abstract” or nebulous. So this raises the question: Should we be basing essential decisions about property rights on a subjective concept with widely varying opinions?

                  But that’s not a problem, because a good drafter discloses at least one means of achieving every step (it was, you’ll recall, a necessity up until the AIA removed best mode). So their is either a dependent claim or one could craft a dependent claim that gives the minimum scope. Anything broader than that is essentially an argument over equivalencies, which is not foreign to an infringement debate anyway.

                  It’s an important and necessary debate, because otherwise every Applicant becomes his own Morse – trying to foreclose all of the possible advancements for himself. When one does ABC and someone else does AB’C, there’s always going to be a question as to whether B’ is infringing or an invention in its own right.

                3. Okay, let me get this straight.

                  You just switched – in the blink of an eye – from “this claim is fine because these are simple acts” to “this claim is invalid for overbreadth, and also crappy”… yet you don’t think that the standard you’re suggesting has some clear problems?

                4. You just switched – in the blink of an eye – from “this claim is fine because these are simple acts” to “this claim is invalid for overbreadth, and also crappy”… yet you don’t think that the standard you’re suggesting has some clear problems?

                  On evidence that one of skill in the art would find that there are many ways of doing something that the art would say differ in quality? Of course. Claims are viewed as a PHOSITA. Why would that be surprising at all?

                5. On evidence that one of skill in the art would find that there are many ways of doing something that the art would say differ in quality? Of course.

                  What “evidence” did I provide? All I showed you was that what looks simple to one person can be construed as potentially complicated to another.

                  Every single element of every single element of technology is amenable to the exact same sort of deep-dive into the details. It is an implicit feature of technology.

                  If a mechanical device claim states that two elements are connected by a “hinge” – does that suddenly become ambiguous because there are thousands of different types of hinges for different purposes?

                  If a chemical claim states that a particular substance is pH-balanced by an “acid” – does that suddenly become ambiguous because there are millions upon millions of compositions that can be used as an “acid” in that substance?

                  If an electrical claim states that a device is powered by a “battery” – well, you get the idea.

                  Look, we can play this game all day. It goes like this:

                  * You give me a term of technology that you think is simple and clear.

                  * I’ll give you a dozen-or-so different aspects of it that can be improved, or specialized, or adapted for particular scenarios.

                  * Then you’ll say it’s vague and “crappy” and whoever drafted that claim should feel bad.

                  On second thought, let’s not play that game. It’s not very interesting.

                6. David,

                  It is not very interesting for the express reason that anyone who understand patent law and who is inte11ectually honest in having a conversation on the merits has seen through Random’s anti-patent views on 112, his insistence on some type of picture-claim only, his purposeful not understanding of the ladders of abstraction (incessantly thinking that somehow ladders only have two rungs – one at the bottom and one at the top), and a whole host of other misperceptions and misconceptions of patent law.

                  What would really drive Random nuts is the techdirt/slashdot view on equivalencies of ALL programs (check out some of the rants of a guy named POIR or some such) – then ask Random if he is still stuck on his wanting code – and conversely, if he would be willing to grant different patents to “different” inventions if the only differences were in code languages.

                  Just like Malcolm’s “pet” argument about claims being in “all objective physical terms”** falls apart with the barest minimum of critical scrutiny, so too does Random’s rants.

                  ** any and all “software” claims can be reduced to an incomprehensible hundred page per claim “all objective physical structure” claim format.

                  Any and all.

                  Being slavish to form over function would meet Malcolm’s “legal argument” and not resolve to the ends that he desires.

                  The bottom line of course is that language is simply limited as a means of expression and being slavish does not accord to the legal norms of reading claims in the eyes of PHOSITA.

                  (and as mentioned to Anon2, the language of the art happens to be language sounding in action and function – but make no mistake, there is a clear difference between software and software in action. To have any inte11ectually honest discussion – here or anywhere – certain foundational definitions must be acknowledged, accepted, and integrated into the conversation.

                  Software is a manufacture in its own right and is defined to be a machine component.

                  Software is equivalent to*** hardware and is equivalent to firmware.

                  ***again, note the anti-obfuscationists observation that this is simply not “exactly the same as.”

                  You can tell those who want to have a real conversation apart from those merely seeking a desired end state outside of reality by the views on these fundamentals.

                7. What “evidence” did I provide?

                  You said that there are thousands of ways to do it and that the art would appreciate the difference. Either that’s true or it’s not. If it’s not, then my original assessment is correct. If it is, then my “switch in the blink of an eye” is. Conclusions are based on facts.

                  Every single element of every single element of technology is amenable to the exact same sort of deep-dive into the details. It is an implicit feature of technology.

                  That’s correct, but either an art cares about the difference or it doesn’t. If the art doesn’t care, then there is no difference. That’s where equivalency comes from – the art not caring. And the art does matter. I’m not a wine connoisseur, to me a Merlot is a Merlot, but from someone in the relevant field, the vintage is probably exceedingly important.

                  You talk about hinges or batteries or any other term – if the art is trying to innovate in hinges and the hinge usage in this particular situation is relevant to the overall machine, then yes, which of the thousands of hinges are used is important. If the hinge is largely irrelevant to the art because all it wants is to be able to open a door, then the hinge is irrelevant. You’re looking for some sort of bright line rule when there isn’t one. Something matters when it matters, that’s the best you can do – substantial similarity. I don’t know why that’s a difficult standard to accept, as all of patent law is pointing out differences that matter to the art. Every time there isn’t a 102 rejection on an invention, we’re discussing how something differs from what is already out there. Every time there isn’t literal infringement, we’re discussing how something differs. And every time there is claim construction, including indefiniteness, guess what, we’re talking about differences via the imprecise nature of language. You go too abstract with a claim, well then you rein it back in. That’s what dependent claims are for. Why is this so upsetting?

                  Then you’ll say it’s vague and “crappy” and whoever drafted that claim should feel bad.

                  Well I’m not here to hurt feelings (except maybe anon’s). Your inventor knows whether the art cares about something. The problem comes in when an attorney, who is just trying to get the broadest coverage, just goes an abstracts something out without really knowing whether the art would view that as an important distinction. I get why you do it, but if it wasn’t relevant HOW something gets accomplished you wouldn’t have prohibitions on functional claiming or judicial exceptions or 112(a) at all. Sometimes you overshoot and you conflate two things which the art would say are different and you lump them together as if your guy invented both, and when that happens the claim should be found invalid because it is “crappy.”

                8. Random, your problem remains – and yes, it is your problem.

                  You want some type of “code”-level specificity and just do not get the ladders of abstraction approach. You continue to think that ladders only come with two rungs – one at the bottom and one at the top.

                  You also continue to show a lack of appreciation for the actual words and actual history of the 1952 Act.

                  You appear to have some knowledge of the doctrine of equivalents (which is a start), but you don’t seem to get how that applies in the real world with ladders having more than two rungs.

                  Yes – the particular art field IS important, you mouth that, but appear to not be able to understand that such is a benefit to the patentee (especially when the Supreme Court chooses to super power PHOSITA and thus amplify the spacings of the ladder rungs that are permitted.

                  Finally, it is rather amusing that you post that you don’t care about hurting my feelings, as such a statement ONLY hurts your credibility. It shows that you are simply unable to separate the message from the messenger and that your posts are inclined to be biased and emotive rather than objective.

                9. > If the hinge is largely irrelevant to the art because all it wants is to be able to open a door, then the hinge is irrelevant.

                  Right! This is exactly my point! All that matters, in that context, is that it is a hinge.

                  And conversely, for an invention where the hinge matters, the claim should be specific. For instance – if the device requires a hinge that (a) confines movement to a certain range of angles and (b) exhibits a certain frictionless quality over that range, then the specification and claims should indicate some examples of hinges that provide those properties.

                  So the “bright line” I’m seeking is simply this principle: If the details of an element significantly relate to the invention, then those details better be in the claim. If not, then the element can be described more generically (e.g., a “hinge,” irrespective of type).

                  And if you agree with that principle, which I suspect you will – then it adequately explains the Biosig Federal Circuit opinions. The electrodes in this case have exactly one purpose: to collect EMG/ ECG signals from the hand. Any configuration of electrodes that achieves that purpose is adequate – materials, type, size, shape, color… and, yes “spaced relationship.”

                  (This principle is also why Ned is having such trouble with this case, because it tramples the “physical elements cannot be functionally claimed” theory that he’s asserted for several years.)

                10. David, let me make it clear in case you do not appreciate my position, functionally a claiming old elements is entirely acceptable and preferred. The problem occurs only when the point of novelty is claimed functionally, i.e. claims a result.

                  The Supreme Court made it clear also that in combination claims, their only objection is where the functional element is at the exact point of novelty. They said so in Faulkner v. Gibbs.

                  In the present case, both the structure disclosed, and the circuits disclosed were old. Prior exercise machines had grips. Prior exercise machines had spaced electrodes — and, prior exercise machines also had the very same circuit.

                  The specification in the present case did not describe anything in terms of structure or process which was different from the prior art. The only thing new in the specification was discovery of a law of nature concerning EMG signals. But there is nothing in the specification which taught anyone any new technology either in terms of different structures or different methods. There is no disclosure whatsoever of any invention.

                  So what we are left with is this: one takes the prior art machines and makes adjustments in order to cancel out the EMG signals. This effectively is claiming a result. Under any theory of law that the Supreme Court or Congress is set forth in the statutes, such cannot be a patentable invention.

                  The ruling by the Federal Circuit in this case is a travesty. It is so contrary to fundamental patent law in so many different ways that it cannot be allowed to stand.

                11. > The Supreme Court made it clear also that in combination claims, their only objection is where the functional element is at the exact point of novelty.

                  Okay – where is the structural feature at the point of “novelty” in this claim?

                  > 1. An e-commerce outsourcing process comprising: a) capturing a look and feel description associated with a host website and storing HTML code corresponding to the look and feel description at a second website; b) providing the host website with a link for inclusion within a page on the host website for serving to a visitor computer, wherein the provided link correlates the host website with a selected commerce object; and c) upon receiving an activation of the provided link from the visitor computer, serving to the visitor computer from the second website page with a look and feel corresponding to the captured look and feel description of the host website associated with the provided link and with content based on the commerce object associated with the provided link; whereby the visitor receiving the served page at the visitor computer perceives the page as associated with the host website even though it is served from the second website.

                  Don’t like that one? How about this one:

                  > 1. A bacterium from the genus Pseudomonas containing therein at least two stable energy-generating plasmids, each of said plasmids providing a separate hydrocarbon degradative pathway.

                  That’s Diamond v. Chakrabarty – which, last I checked, is still good law. Looks awfully functional to me, Ned. Where is the “structure at the point of novelty” there?

                12. David, you can’t throw claims over the wall and ask for one determine the point of novelty. You have to provide context and tell us in advance what is new and what is old.

                13. That’s an extraordinarily weak dodge, Ned, given that both claims are almost entirely functional.

                  I’m going to look forward to asking you about Chakrabarty whenever I encounter your “functional at the point of novelty” shtick.

              2. 8.3.2.2.1.1.2

                > The specification in the present case did not describe anything in terms of structure or process which was different from the prior art. The only thing new in the specification was discovery of a law of nature concerning EMG signals.

                Ned, the claim centrally recites a differencing amplifier with two terminals of different polarity, where the electrodes for each hand connect to different terminals of the differencing amplifier, and outputs a signal representing the difference.

                That is your structure. It is exactly how an EE would describe the schematic for that part of the circuit, at a low level, within the constraints of claim language.

                Why do you not see that as a structural description?

                1. David, that exact circuit is disclosed in the prior art. The prior art had 2 handles with space electrodes that fed the same circuit. Nothing was new.

    4. 8.4

      Indefiniteness means you don’t know what it is

      Indefiniteness means you’re not reasonably certain you know what it is.

      True or false – The Applicant knew of a particular spacing that achieved the result?

      True or false – Applicant could have conveyed the spacing in an absolute sense (x inches) and it would have been EASIER to do than to create functional language?

      Then the only question is “Is it reasonable to invent a more vague term when you have a more precise, easily conveyed term in front of you?”

      The standard is not insoluably ambiguous anymore. It’s not a question of “if you know what it is” it’s a question of “could you have been less vague without an undue burden?”

      1. 8.4.1

        Random, the inventor in Nautilus testified that spacing was only one thing that he adjusted in order to get the EMG signals to balance. None of what he did in practice was disclosed either in his specification, or in his testimony.

        The Supreme Court held in United Carbon that claiming results, i.e., that anything that actually works in practice is covered, is a claim that is indefinite.

        But of course you and I agree in this. But it is very hard to communicate these very simple concepts to people who simply do not understand the issue or if they do understand the issue, pretend they do not understand the issue.

    5. 8.5

      Silly, a claim to a result may be clear — if one achieves the result (as in Nautilus), one infringes. But such a claim certainly does not particularly point out the invention unless one is entitled to claim the invention in the abstract, something the Supreme Court has been denying since Le Roy v. Tatham.

      I can only hope that the Supreme Court takes this case up once again and compares the holding here by the Federal Circuit with its United Carbon case, because the two cannot be reconciled.

    6. 8.6

      “Functionality means, whatever it is,”

      In other words they’re going to set forth what it is at all.

  7. 7

    To me one of the most fascinating issues in patent law right now is whether the court will expand that framework to function-claiming more broadly.

    I’ll go you one better – the framework of means-plus is likely the standard for all abstraction-ranging.

    Right now the standard for proving enablement and possession of a genus is proof of “sufficient examples” such that you “fill the breadth” of the genus. There is no current standard for what constitutes a sufficient amount of examples.

    The rule should be that you have sufficient examples when your examples, along with every embodiment that performs the substantially the same function in substantially the same way, fills the entirety of the breadth of the genus. It HAS to be at least this strict, because otherwise you would create a situation where B has a non-obvious invention in light of A’s disclosure and yet still be infringing of A’s scope.

    This also eliminates the ridiculous idea that you could get a larger scope with less disclosure by choosing to avoid means-plus claiming.

    “Moreover, when a claim limitation is defined in ‘purely functional terms,’ a determination of whether the limitation is sufficiently definite is ‘highly dependent on context (e.g., the disclosure in the specification and the knowledge of a person of ordinary skill in the relevant art area).’

    Too bad the other Halliburton (you know, the controlling one) expressly rejects this.

    At some point someone will advance the argument that a functional description is inherently not reasonable so long as a structural description exists. That argument WILL WIN at the Supreme Court level, completely eviscerating this quote. Reasonableness is not a one-tailed test. It’s not a question of if a scale tips to a point where it says “sufficient,” it’s a question of how easily one could convey a more definite description.

    1. 7.1

      At least you are consistent in not understanding what Congress actually did in writing 112 (your “H” was abrogated – the opposite of controlling). The use of terms of functional language exist outside of 112(f) and “means for” and “step for.”

      As Malcolm needs to recognize, so too do you:

      That is the law, no matter how much you whine.

      1. 7.1.1

        (your “H” was abrogated

        I’m still waiting for you to point to one competent place that states that Halliburton was abrogated with respect to non-means-plus scopes anon. Care to try this time or will you run away again? Federico (which is BS) doesn’t even claim to discuss non-means-plus language in his comments, his sole commentary is w.r.t. the usage of 112(6). Halliburton’s claim scope construction (i.e. construing the scope of “tuned accoustical means”) is clearly reversed. Where is the language by Congress, Federico or a later Supreme Court case stating that a scope not limited to particular structures in the specification is invalid (the second part of the Halliburton holding)?

        That is the law, no matter how much you whine.

        You keep trying to tell me the law when you forget the scoreboard.

        1. 7.1.1.1

          For the reader’s convenience, here is the single sentence in Federico:

          It is unquestionable that some measure of greater liberality in the use of functional expressions in combination claims is authorized than had been permitted by some court decisions and that decisions such as that in Halliburton Oil Well Cementing Co. v. Walker, 67 S.Ct. 6, 329 U.S. 1, 91 L. Ed. 3 (1946), are modified or rendered obsolete, but the exact limits of the enlargement remain to be determined.

          That’s a statement that one can avail themselves of 112(6) to “modify or render obsolete” Halliburton. There is nothing in that statement which 1) discusses functional language outside of 112(6) at all or 2) overrules the ultimately holding.

        2. 7.1.1.2

          Rich, overruling the Supreme Court, as was his wont:

          Application of Fuetterer, 319 F.2d 259 (C.C.P.A. 1963), at n. 11.

          We feel, however, that a considerable body of case law, if not the preponderance thereof, before the Halliburton case interpreted broad statements of structure, e. g., “means,” plus a statement of function in the manner now sanctioned by the statute. See, e. g., Westinghouse v. Boyden Power Brake Co., 170 U.S. 537, 558, 18 S.Ct. 707, 42 L.Ed. 1136.

          Westinghouse was overruled by Halliburton. Rich “restored” it, thereby ignoring and overruling Halliburton.

          But, Rich was, in the view of the patent bar, a patent god, placing him above the Supreme Court. His word was law.

          And, did he ever get anything right? Name anything, please.

          1. 7.1.1.2.1

            That quote is correct though, that means claiming is now sanctioned by law. But 112,6th on its face only applies when invoked – one has to “opt in” to the Westinghouse analysis. What happens when one chooses to forego the use of 112, 6th and achieves the scope the Supreme Court gave the construction in Halliburton? Then Westinghouse doesn’t apply, only Halliburton does, and Halliburton finds it invalid.

    2. 7.2

      It HAS to be at least this strict, because otherwise you would create a situation where B has a non-obvious invention in light of A’s disclosure and yet still be infringing of A’s scope.

      Huh? This has been an accepted aspect of the patent system forever, hasn’t it

      1. 7.2.1

        Huh? This has been an accepted aspect of the patent system forever, hasn’t it

        No, in fact it’s only been recently and only with respect to the CAFC.

        An example:

        Suppose A develops a method of radiation therapy that completely cures cancer. A files an application describing his invention and claims 1. A method of curing cancer and 2. The method of claim 1, comprising steps ABCDE.

        B comes along and develops a method of drug administration which cures cancer. B cannot practice without infringing A’s claim 1, because Claim 1 is not directed toward the structural steps A takes in curing cancer, but in the functional result of curing cancer itself. Morse calls Claim 1 a violation of 101. GE v. Wabash (and now Nautilus) calls Claim 1 a violation of 112(b). Perkin’s Glue calls it a violation of 112(a) enablement and Lizardtech (in a rare show of intelligence from the CAFC) calls it a violation of 112(a) written description.

        The question is how detailed does Claim 1 have to get before it is no longer overbroad? Prior to ’52 there was no answer because “overbreadth” was kind of it’s own rejection, it was a functional language/eye test. Post 52 people used means-plus language to avoid the issue, until in the 80s(? 90s?) they shrunk the equivilents of 112(6) and people stopped using it. Since then (what you would call “forever”) people have resorted to this broad functional claiming outside of means-plus which is simply invalid.

        So what is the current standard? 112(b) requires the claims be reasonably certain, which as I argue suggests that you simply can’t use a functional description when a structural one exists (this is pretty much explicitly stated in GE v Wabash, which Nautilus cites to). 112(a), under the CAFC, requires proof of “sufficient examples” to fill the scope. In the example, A can’t fill the scope of “cure for cancer” because the existence of a completely different means taught by B proves that A failed to fill the scope – he neither enabled nor posited the completely different means. 101 may or may not remove all end-result claiming altogether, because a claim to achieve an end is an abstract idea and not limiting it to a particular means is not significantly more.

        You can see that the example above would hold for anything – so long as the “second inventor” (or the “infringer” if you like, under “conventional” CAFC thinking they appear to be the same thing) takes a different means toward achieving the functional result than the one described in the patent holder’s patent, there is always an argument that the claim scope is too broad and the valid scope devolves to it’s proper breadth – things are only infringing when they achieve the same result in substantially the same the same way. You simply can’t infringe a functional scope unless your means of infringement are the same means contemplated by the patent holder, because otherwise he didn’t enable the part of his scope that makes you an infringer.

        The suggestion that you can simply describe one means of achieving a function and then claim the function is the biggest mistake practitioners today are making. All of those Supreme Court cases make clear you cannot extend your claim beyond your invention. All of those scopes are invalid.

      2. 7.2.2

        bDanH,

        In a sense, yes.

        Inventor A: A + B.

        Inventor B; A + B’.

        B infringe A if B’ is an equivalent of B. Not so if B’ is not an equivalent.

        What Random is talking about is where B is functionally claimed such that B and B’ are literally covered so that one does not even have to determine equivalency. The functional claim covers the disclosed embodiment B, but it also covers B”, where B” is not an equivalent.

        The Supreme Court believes that B” are independent inventions, and the art must be free to develop these.

  8. 6

    You stated that the proper emphasis should be placed on “purely”. Really we just asked what you meant. We hoped it wouldn’t be answered with a question, but that’s our insanity.

    As for your questions >
    1- Yeah, we are in the cheap seats.
    2- Yes, and duh.
    3a- Yes, but “registered” is not “earned.”
    3b- You should rethink this one.

    …repete quid interrogatus sis, recognosce quid responderis
    (On the Mysteries, St Ambrose)

  9. 5

    ““The Court has accordingly modified the standard by which lower courts examine allegedly ambiguous claims; we may now steer by the bright star of ‘reasonable certainty,’ rather than the unreliable compass of ‘insoluble ambiguity.’” Id. at 9.”

    Hooray!

    1. 5.1

      The CAFC: The Court has accordingly modified the standard by which lower courts examine allegedly ambiguous claims; we may now steer by the bright star of ‘reasonable certainty,’ rather than the unreliable compass of ‘insoluble ambiguity

      A tad sarcastic? Just a little bitter, maybe?

      The problem with “insoluble ambiguity” wasn’t that it was “unreliable”. It was that it effectively relegated the requirement for “definiteness” to the garbage heap.

      1. 5.1.1

        For sure, I don’t understand what the author of the OP was really talking about. The problems with insoluble ambiguity as a standard were apparent on the face of it.

    2. 5.2

      I read that entire discussion as quite cynical and glib. Especially in light of the ultimate holding that the claims are definite. I certainly did not conclude that anyone on the Federal Circuit believes the Supreme Court has added precision to anything.

  10. 4

    Speaking of funtional claims, this case was argued before the CAFC on Tuesday May 5:

    Media Rights Technologies v. Capital One

    I’m actually not entirely sure of what was being appealed here (presumably a summary judgment of some sort against the troll who brought the suit).

    Sample claim (be sure to empty your functional flunk bucket because you’re bound to fill it up again):

    1. A method of preventing unauthorized recording of electronic media comprising:

    activating a compliance mechanism in response to receiving media content by a client system, said compliance mechanism coupled to said client system, said client system having a media content presentation application operable thereon and coupled to said compliance mechanism;

    controlling a data output path of said client system with said compliance mechanism by diverting a commonly used data pathway of said media player application to a controlled data pathway monitored by said compliance mechanism; and

    directing said media content to a custom media device coupled to said compliance mechanism via said data output path, for selectively restricting output of said media content.

    I’m sure the spec is just chock full of “structure”.

    Right.

    1. 4.1

      For more listening fun, check out the judges blatantly mocking and scorning Gil Hyatt’s prosecution schemes during oral argument earlier today.

      link to cafc.uscourts.gov

      Hyatt really, really, really, really wants to keep those applications secret. And there’s no way that anything Hyatt says during prosecution of his 115,000 awesome claims is relevant to understanding any of Hyatt’s other applications that are publically available. How do we know that? Because Hyatt says so. And he’s super trust-worthy.

    2. 4.2

      MM, was the issue 112(b)? This limitation,
      “of said media player application” does not appear elsewhere in the claim.

      That said, we have a device that receives “data,” a compliance mech. diverts data to a custom device from common pathway, where the compliance mech is activated by “media content.” It is said that this “selectively” restricts “output” of said media content [by the device]. Implicit therefor is that the diversion is based on what the content is — rules.

      This is exactly like the lip sync case where the art manually synced lips to music using technique, and the claim was to automating the process using rules.

      Too broad and really indefinite. 101.

    3. 4.3

      Even more fun:

      Intellectroll Ventures v. Capital One, 2014-1506

      link to cafc.uscourts.gov

      Hear IV’s lawyer fall on his face and dissemble less than one minute into the argument. Hear the judges react in amazement.

      “This patent is about how to make a website after we learn about a user’s data.”

      Whoa! Sooper dooper techno stuff! What a joke of a patent system we have.

      “If your honor is saying that tailoring content is the abstract idea, then this particular claim adds significantly more …”

      Sure it does! It adds the Internet. Which is old. And which delivers content.

      Lawyer: “There’s no evidence in the record that suggests that tailoring content is old …”

      Try to believe it, folks. We were all born yesterday, or at least some patent lawyers were … But they’re very serious people. You can trust them.

      Lawyer: “This idea only applies to a website.”

      LOL. Really? Because nobody ever tailored a presentation to anybody before. No, wait! It’s about tailoring in “real time”. Nobody did that before! No, wait! It’s about the Internet. No, wait!

      Lawyer: “Correct … [the “interactive interface” is the “brains of the operation”].”

      Oh noes! He’s anthropomorphormorphosizing!

      Judge: “Adding Internet technology doesn’t in and of itself make an abstract idea patentable.”

      Lawyer (paraphrasing): “This isn’t a commonplace idea.”

      Got that, folks? Tailoring content isn’t a “commonplace idea.” Since when? Since yesterday — when this attorney was apparently born.

      Lawyer: “This was not an idea that existed before the Internet.”

      He’s almost to China folks! Oh, my goodness this is comedy gold.

      1. 4.3.1

        In a sane, just society Intellectroll Ventures would be sanctioned out of business for the junk they threw at the Federal Circuit today.

        Pity that the Capital One attorney had to waste his time and everyone else’s discussing the CAFC’s worthless DDR Holdings case. And even more sad was the weak attempt by Reyna to read some irrelevant functional limitations into the claim to make the “technology” seem more “impressive” (and therefore, apparently, more “worthy” of eligibility according to the non-existent “impressive” criterion for subject matter eligibility).

        Pull the plug, CAFC. Just pull it. The crying wil be loud but it won’t last long. Innovation will continue just as it always has but at least the public won’t have its court’s time wasted with this ridiculous nonsense.

      2. 4.3.2

        This sort of argument is honestly upsetting. There should be sanctions. Honestly, if I had my way, people who made arguments like this would be disbarred.

  11. 3

    What boggles is that the claim is to a result, yet it was held definite.

    The disclosed invention is removing a background signal in an exercise apparatus where the user grasped two grips. The background signals were canceled by a using a subtraction circuit. In order to do this, the signals had to be equal from each hand on respective grips. However, the specification itself did not disclose that the signals from the electrodes of each hand would be anything but equal. They were assumed to be equal.

    During reexamination, there was inventor testimony that the inventor adjusted a number of things in the grips to get the signals to balance including adjusting the materials and the electrode spacing. None of this was disclosed the specification.

    “This equalization or balancing . . . is achieved by detecting EMG
    signals on the left and right palms, which are
    delivered to a differential amplifier in the EMG
    measuring device. Available design variables are
    then adjusted until the differential output is
    minimized, i.e., close to zero, and the ECG to
    EMG ratio is determined to be sufficient for an
    accurate heart rate determination. J.A. 200–01.”

    Slip at *18.

    Electrode spacing was only one of the non-disclosed “design variables.” However, no matter how one adjusted the non-disclosed design variables, in the end, any adjustment would infringe so long as the signals become balanced. Thus if someone invented a completely new and nonobvious way of balancing the signals, one still would infringe.

    This is a claim to result regardless of the means of achieving the result. I cannot understand how the Federal Circuit could approve of this claim.

    1. 3.1

      Also, how many times have we seen the Federal Circuit simply reaffirm their prior opinion on remand the Supreme Court? I think every time.

      This seems to argue that perhaps a different panel should review the case on remand.

      This is similar to what is going on in IPRs where the same panel decides both the institution decision and the final decision. Because the evidence is substantially the same for both, do we really expect a different result? Not really. Thus an initial decision where the standard is “reasonable likelihood” as opposed to “preponderance” ends up controlling the outcome.

      1. 3.1.1

        “This is similar to what is going on in IPRs where the same panel decides both the institution decision and the final decision. Because the evidence is substantially the same for both, do we really expect a different result? Not really.”

        This is also similar to what is going on in patent applications where the same examiner decides both the first Office Action decision and the final Office Action decision. Because the evidence is substantially the same for both, do we really expect a different result? Not really.

        1. 3.1.1.1

          Well, Les, there was a lot of protest when the examiner assigned to a reexamination is the same examiner who issued the patent in first place.

          As well, one of the reasons people like to file cases in the same district as they litigated before where the court has previously ruled in favor of patent owner. The same judge tends to get the case and tends to decide every issue the same way.

          The problem with IPRs is that the standard of proof of the institution decision is lower, lower than preponderance and clearly lower than clear and convincing.

  12. 2

    Eon: “[t]he question before us is whether the specification contains a
    sufficiently precise description of the ‘corresponding structure’ to satisfy section 112, paragraph 6, not whether a person of skill in the art could devise some means to carry out the recited function.”

    Patent law just took two baby steps forward today and a ton of identical claims just went down the trash chute. Congrats to the Federal Circuit! There’s more to come, of course.

    That said, one can’t help but notice that the term “corresponding structure” is in quotes. As everyone knows, the term is in quotes because there is zero new structure responsible for the claimed functionalities in any of these patents that try to protect “new” logic executing machines. Instead we have the purely conceptual (non)-“structure” of a flow chart that represents a logical decision making tree. How much does “if then” weigh? What’s the density of “(X-Y/4.2)”? Eventually the Federal Circuit will need to accept that it’s Frankensteinian attempt to breathe “structure” into ethereal algoirthms was, at best, a failure and more likely a system-corroding catastrophe.

    As for the claims at issue in Nautilis, Jason is certainly correct that a very different issue was presented by those claims. The objective physical meaning of the term “spaced relationship” was (according to the Federal Circuit) described with “reasonable certainty” to the skilled artisan. The reasonably certain meaning of that term — unfortunately buried in the CAFC’s decision on page 15 — is: “neither infinitesimally small nor greater than the width of a user’s hands.”

    Note to future Federal Circuit panels: when you trumpet over and over again that a term’s meaning is “reasonable certain”, you really need to specify, in each instance of trumpeting, what term you are referring to and ‘reasonably certain” meaning you have ascribed to that term. Otherwise readers of the opinion are going to be left with the impression that you are trying to bury the result of the analysis, as if that result is somehow embarassing or difficult-t0-believe. Do a better job, please.

    1. 2.1

      MM, the PTO needs to start rejecting programmed computer claims as not being directed to “new” machines unless the claim requires, in some manner, the fixation of the program to the machine in a permanent manner. Simply programming an old and generic computer does not and cannot define a new machine. It is, rather, using an old machine, and must be claimed as a process.

      Once the PTO starts rejecting these claims in this manner, the issue will get to the Federal Circuit in short order where the court can finally deal with the issue directly.

      1. 2.1.1

        ” the PTO needs to start rejecting programmed computer claims as not being directed to “new” machines unless the claim requires, in some manner, the fixation of the program to the machine in a permanent manner.”

        Why is permanence now a factor Ned? Since all we are is dust in the wind, how long is “permanent”?

        Is a year long enough, a month, a week, a day, an hour?

        Does the same rule apply to claims to diapers and paper towels? Must they maintain the claimed configuration forever?

        A patents only grantable to things that do not degrade or decay?

        What about medicines, those get metabolized (else you don’t need refills and no one makes any money). So, are they not patentable anymore because the chemical bonds in , fore example, the atoms that make up Crestor, are not permanent?

        Yikes Ned, Yikes

        1. 2.1.1.1

          Les, for an explanation, look at why the C.C.P.A. held a programmed computer to be a new machine? See, post 2.2.1 below.

          1. 2.1.1.1.1

            An old computer is a component in a new machine made of the old computer and new software. That is clear to me on its face. the reasoning of CCPA is not important to me.

            Moreover, even if new software and an old computer could be construed not to be a new machine, at a minimum it is an improved machine, and that is patentable too under 101.

            so…..

            1. 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Les, it quite apparent to me also that a song played on a piano defines a new piano. It is clear on its face — to me.

              That kind of argument and persuasion should be sufficient for your purposes. So, shut the frack up, will you Les? I have declared the piano new. Stop complaining that I am not right.

              1. 2.1.1.1.1.1.1

                Except for the fact Ned that you are being duplicitous with the use of the canard of non-useful arts which is a nonstarter.

                Engaging in such fallacious arguments should be criminal and is most definitely unethical.

                For shame Ned. For shame.

                1. Canard?

                  Take the macaroni maker that the inventors in Le Roy v. Tatham used to make wrought lead pipe. The machines were the same, just that in one, it was applied to “extrude” macaroni. In the other, hot lead.

                  Can one say that the macaroni maker was a new machine? The issue flummoxed the Supreme Court.

                  Your call.

                2. Your “argument” rests on the non-starter of music, a non-useful art.

                  The call is an easy one – especially from the technical standpoint of being functionally related.

                  Shall I quote to you your words from the past copyright thread of this very blog concerning API’s?

                3. “anon” Your “argument” rests on the non-starter of music, a non-useful art.

                  Ned, you clearly forgot that you aren’t allowed to refer to incontrovertibly ineligible subject matter during the course of a discussion about ineligible subject matter.

                  Because “anon” said so. And you know he’s a super serious person.

                4. I’ve said this before, but I still don’t get it.

                  Why all the argument about “new machine” or “not new machine?” The Supreme Court has explained that, from a legal perspective, the issue is totally irrelevant.

                  Regardless of whether the computer in Alice (9-0) was a new machine or not, the claim was ineligible for patenting. Why doesn’t this end the discussion?

                5. go arthur: Why all the argument about “new machine” or “not new machine?” The Supreme Court has explained that, from a legal perspective, the issue is totally irrelevant.

                  Zombie arguments keep coming because it’s all the zombie’s got. The easy-to-follow logic that leads to Mayo and Alice can’t be rebutted by the zombies so instead they appeal to the reptile brain, i.e., “b-b-b-ut it’s a n-n-ew machine!”

                  These guys will always kick up dust and confuse the claim with some super awesome “valuable” and (ideally) beloved real-world object that falls within the scope of the claim. The underlying “argument”, of course, being that if they can’t get the claims they want, then nobody will get shiny new machines anymore. Because they said so! And they’re very important and serious people.

                  Stick around long enough and some deep thinker will show up and spout some nonsense about “Diehr forbids claim dissection!!” It’s guaranteed.

                6. unethical

                  Go file your complaint to the proper authorities, “anon.”

                  What are you waiting for?

                7. Go, rom a “legal” point of view it is totally irrelevant?

                  Well, go, the new use of an old machine is really a process. A claim to an old computer configured to execute a program is non statutory under 101.

                  Second, it makes a big difference when considering 271(a), (b) and (c), especially with B-claims. With a process, we still have that pesky divided infringement case of BMC Resources to deal with. Also, inducement and contributory require knowledge of infringement for any liability to attach. Structuring the claims as an apparatus or article may simply jump over these cases and make infringers out of people who otherwise would not infringe.

                8. “Regardless of whether the computer in Alice (9-0) was a new machine or not, the claim was ineligible for patenting. Why doesn’t this end the discussion?”

                  Because the Supreme Court is wrong in this case and errors of the Supreme Court are sometimes recognized and corrected.

              2. 2.1.1.1.1.1.2

                “shut the frack up, will you Les? I have declared the piano new. Stop complaining that I am not right.”

                At what point did I complain that you are not right that the piano is new?

                1. Les, I was trying to illustrate a point about the manner of your argument to me regarding computers being new machines when programmed.

    2. 2.2

      Another choice quote from the Eon decision: WMS Gaming
      held that the corresponding structure for a software algorithm is the algorithm.

      Golly, when the CAFC puts it that way, WMS Gaming suddenly sounds like an even bigger cop-out than anybody could ever have imagined!

      Then the CAFC blames the holding in WMS Gaming on the Supreme’s Court soon-to-be-buried-in-the-garbage-heap-of-history decision in Alapat. Specifically, they recite the quote: (“[A] computer . . . is apparatus not mathematics.”). That’s certainly true but it’s beside the point. The point is that a patent claim to a “new” computer that describes only “new” math is a patent claim that protects “new” math. And math is ineligible for protection with a patent. Both Prometheus and Alice have plainly obliterated the nonsense reasoning in Allapat and WMS Gaming according to the CAFC’s own reasoning.

      The house of cards is toppling. Nobody could have predicted …

      1. 2.2.1

        MM, Alappat was an en banc Federal Circuit decision. It contained dicta that a programmed computer was a “new” machine – where that dicta traced back to Application of Bernhart, 417 F.2d 1395, 163 U.S.P.Q. 611 (C.C.P.A. 1969). link to scholar.google.com

        From Bernhart:

        “The examiner indicated that the novelty in applicants’ claims therefore lay in the equations with which the computer was programmed, and that this is not a structural difference over the prior art. The examiner concluded that since the programming was not structural, the claims were “predicated for patentability on mental steps.”

        “There is one further rationale used by both the board and the examiner, namely, that the provision of new signals to be stored by the computer does not make it a new machine, i. e. it is structurally the same, no matter how new, useful and unobvious the result. This rationale really goes more to novelty than to statutory subject matter but it appears to be at the heart of the present controversy. To this question we say that if a machine is programmed in a certain new and unobvious way, it is physically different from the machine without that program; its memory elements are differently arranged. The fact that these physical changes are invisible to the eye should not tempt us to conclude that the machine has not been changed. If a new machine has not been invented, certainly a “new and useful improvement” of the unprogrammed machine has been, and Congress has said in 35 U.S.C. § 101 that such improvements are statutory subject matter for a patent. It may well be that the vast majority of newly programmed machines are obvious to those skilled in the art and hence unpatentable under 35 U.S.C. § 103. We are concluding here that such machines are statutory under 35 U.S.C. § 101, …”

        Obviously, this thinking is now overruled not only by Benson, but buy Alice. A programmed machine is not statutory under 101. Thus every decision that followed Bernhart is implicitly overruled.

        1. 2.2.1.1

          If what you say about Alice is true, maybe the Court can be swayed again and be pulled back from the dark side to this side of the looking glass so the sanity of Bernhart can be restored.

          1. 2.2.1.1.1

            Les, but the transformation of the memory in a programmed computer is no difference in kind than the transformation in the keyboard of a piano when playing a song. The transformation is there only fleetingly.

            But if playing the song makes a new piano, so does the execution of a program makes a new computer.

            My god, one would think the C.C.P.A. was composed of graduates from Harvard Business School. They exhibited no understanding of the underlying technology.

            1. 2.2.1.1.1.1

              …underlying technology…?

              Ned relies on music in his bizzaro version of
              Accuse Others Of That Which Malcolm Does

        2. 2.2.1.2

          Ned: MM, Alappat was an en banc Federal Circuit decision.

          Of course it is — thanks for the quick correction. It gets cited by the CAFC so much it’s easy to forget.

          Alappat is a logically a dead decision after Prometheus and Alice (not that it had much going for it before those 9-0 Supreme Court opinions), which really begs the question why the Eon opinion goes to great pains to pin their most sweeping and relatively recent pro-software patent decisions (e.g., WMS Gaming and Aristocrat) on that completely wrecked foundation.

          It’s almost as if Prost, Newman and Bryson fashioned a stick of legal dynamite, stuck it under the CAFC’s own doorstoop and turned on a neon sign saying “Light the fuse”. Now it would appear that someone just needs to “make their day”, as it were. Is it 11:45 pm already?

      2. 2.2.2

        Nothing but dissembling dust-kicking from Malcolm.

        What was that line? Who could have predicted?

        Nothing new here – move along.

        1. 2.2.2.1

          Almost forgot to mention to everybody, “anon”:

          This company “Eon Corp” is quintessential example of a patent troll.

          Who could have imagined that you’d leap to defend their cause? Have you seen their claims yet?

          LOL

          1. 2.2.2.1.1

            Who could have imagined that you’d leap to defend their cause? Have you seen their claims yet?

            More pure dissembling from Malcolm, as I do not leap to defend “their cause,” but rather merely discuss the actual state of law.

            I could care less for their cause.

          2. 2.2.2.1.2

            MM – I haven’t looked at Eon Corp in detail, but what is your definition of a patent troll? Does your definition involve a requirement that the actor exhibit market activity that would infringe that actor’s own patent being asserted? I’m just curious, since this term appears so often these days.

  13. 1

    Proper emphasis on the word “purely,” as should be clear from the history of comments here, the spin factor is VERY high and one must keep a critical eye on the ball.

    (Reminds me of Prof. Crouch’s coined term: Vast Middle Ground)

      1. 1.1.1

        Did you check out first Prof. Crouch’s “ballpark”…?

        Do you then recongize that the thought of software is not software?

        Do you then recognize that software earns copyright, and that you cannot get copyright on either thoughts or math?

        1. 1.1.1.1

          You stated that the proper emphasis should be placed on “purely”. Really we just asked what you meant. We hoped it wouldn’t be answered with a question, but that’s our insanity.

          As for your questions >
          1- Yeah, we are in the cheap seats.
          2- Yes, and duh.
          3a- Yes, but “registered” is not “earned.”
          3b- You should rethink this one.

          …repete quid interrogatus sis, recognosce quid responderis
          (On the Mysteries, St Ambrose)

          1. 1.1.1.1.1

            Even people in the cheap seats – who pay attention – know the score of the game.

            Since you profess to know the good professor’s “ballpark” and further profess to know the difference between the thought of software and software, your question to me is either moot or a base tr011ing attempt.

            Frankly.

            As to your “3a” and “3b” responses, you appear to understand copyright law (and the points I offer with that law) even less.

            It is entirely unclear what point you want to make in attempting to distinguish “registered” and “earned.” Your thought appears to be a non sequitur to what I posted.

            As to “3b,” it appears that you do not understand the plain fact that you cannot have a copyright on either thoughts or math. I have in the past diffused the (rather poor) attempt at dust-kicking by distinguishing math from a book on math, wherein the (rather thin) copyright (based on selection, format, layout, etc) may attach, but no copyright itself may attach to the math itself. This is a basic notion you should be aware of (in the cheap seats or not).

            1. 1.1.1.1.1.1

              We are not trolling. The original question was simple, it wasn’t a challenge, we didn’t know and still don’t know what you thought the not-spun “proper emphasis” on “purely” should be. The article and quote context was indefiniteness, not software. If you meant it in reference to software and that it is not “purely” (only) patent or only copyright protected, you can state that. It is not where we saw the “ball” was at all. If so we know your stance.

              The rest is a curve ball.
              Originally you stated we should pay attention to a particular word, “purely” which implies nuance. When you answer questions with questions, (your Socratic imperative?) it’s not clear if nuance is at issue. We have no other point about earned or registered, (or “secured” or common law copyright). We have said nothing incorrect have we? We are not lawyers so we do not claim to know that much and did not initiate a dialogue on copyright, anyway.

              The math/math book issue has long been resolved, it is moot, and nothing that we have ever mentioned. The other one deserves deeper consideration in analogy to software. Though it depends on defining “software,” it involves semantics and disputed theories of mind. It’s more philosophical than legal.

              Are memoirs, opinions, stories the thoughts of an author?
              Is software and/or firmware authored?

              However, back on the field (which we do play on), we were looking for “reasonable definiteness”.

              1. 1.1.1.1.1.1.1

                The rest is a curve ball

                Continuing with the meme, your pitch of a curve ball was outside of the strike zone (and badly so), thus I did not swing at it.

                If you want to attempt another pitch, I await your effort.

                (The fact that software may be “authored” should not be confused with the non-useful art items that also may be authored. This is NOT a philosophical distinction that broaches and negates the legal understanding of what a manufacture is. Manufactures include the works of man that are completed by hand, and yes, that includes the works “in writing” when those writings meet the exceptions to the judicial doctrine of printed matter (being of course functionally related – as even Ned Heller has noted in the API thread that there is no doubt whatsoever of software meeting the functional aspect).

                Further, it would be more than a bit disingenuous of you to attempt to use a “we are not lawyers” line in our discussion of law here. Feigning or claiming ignorance clearly does not absolve you of understanding what needs to be understood in this conversation.

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