Director Michelle Lee: Moving toward Patent Clarity

The following is a post from Under Secretary of Commerce for Intellectual Property and Director of the USPTO Michelle K. Lee and was published on the PTO Director’s blog

Patent quality is central to fulfilling a core mission of the USPTO, which as stated in the Constitution, is to “promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts.” It is critically important that the USPTO issue patents that are both correct and clear. Historically, our primary focus has been on correctness, but the evolving patent landscape has challenged us to increase our focus on clarity.

 Patents of the highest quality can help to stimulate and promote efficient licensing, research and development, and future innovation without resorting to needless high-cost court proceedings. Through correctness and clarity, such patents better enable potential users of patented technologies to make informed decisions on how to avoid infringement, whether to seek a license, and/or when to settle or litigate a patent dispute. Patent owners also benefit from having clear notice on the boundaries of their patent rights. After and after successfully reducing the backlog of unexamined patent applications, our agency is redoubling its focus on quality. 

 We asked for your help on how we can best improve quality—and you responded. Since announcing the Enhanced Patent Quality Initiative earlier this year, we received over 1,200 comments and extensive feedback during our first-ever Patent Quality Summit and roadshows, as well as invaluable direct feedback from our examining corps. This feedback has been tremendously helpful in shaping the direction of our efforts. And with this background, I’m pleased to highlight some of our initial programs under the Enhanced Patent Quality Initiative. 

 First, we are preparing to launch a Clarity of the Record Pilot, under which examiners will include as part of the prosecution record definitions of key terms, important claim constructions, and more detailed reasons for the allowance and rejection of claims. Based on the information we learn from this pilot, we plan to develop best examiner and applicant practices for enhancing the clarity of the record.

 We also will be launching a new wave of Clarity of the Record Training in the coming months emphasizing the benefits and importance of making the record clear and how to achieve greater clarity. Recently, we provided examiners with training on functional claiming and putting statements in the record when the examiner invokes 35 U.S.C. 112(f), which interprets claims under the broadest reasonable interpretation standard and secures a complete and enabled disclosure for a claimed invention. Training for the upcoming year includes an assessment of a fully described invention under 35 U.S.C. 112(a) and best practices for explaining indefiniteness rejections under 35 U.S.C. 112(b).

 Second, we are Transforming Our Review Data Capture Process to ensure that reviews of an examiner’s work product by someone in the USPTO will follow the same process and access the same facets of examination. Historically, we have had many different types of quality reviews including supervisory patent examiner reviews of junior examiners and quality assurance team reviews of randomly selected examiner work product. Sometimes the factors reviewed by each differed, and the degree to which the review results were recorded. With only a portion of these review results recorded and different criteria captured in those recordings, the data gathered was not as complete, useful, or voluminous as it could have been. As a result, the USPTO has been able to identify statistically significant trends only on a corps-wide basis, but not at the technology center, art unit, or examiner levels. We are working to unify the review process for all reviewers and systematically record the same and all review results through an online form, called the “master review form,” which we intend to share with the public. 

 What are the implications of this new process and new form? This new process will give us the ability to collect and analyze a much greater volume of data from reviews that we were already doing, but that were not previously captured in a centralized, unified way. As we roll out this new review process the amount of data we collect will significantly increase anywhere from three to five times. This will allow us to use big data analytic techniques to identify more detailed trends across the agency based upon statistically significant data including at the technology center, art unit, and even examiner levels. Also, this new process will give us better insight into not just whether the law was applied correctly, but whether the reasons for an examiner’s actions were spelled out in the record clearly and whether there is an omission of a certain type of rejection. For example, for an obvious rejection we are considering not only whether a proper obvious rejection was made, but whether the elements identified in the prior art were mapped onto the claims, whether there are statements in the record explaining the rejection, and whether those statements are clear.

 The end result will be the (1) ability to provide more targeted and relevant training to our examiners with much greater precision, (2) increased consistency in work product across the entire examination corps, and (3) greater transparency in how the USPTO evaluates examiners’ work product. You can read more about these and our many other initiatives, such as our Automated Pre-examination Search pilot and Post Grant Outcomes, which incorporates insight from our Patent Trial and Appeal Board and other proceedings back into the examination process on our new Enhanced Patent Quality Initiative page on our website.

 Finally, let me close by emphasizing that our Enhanced Patent Quality Initiative is not a “one-and-done” effort. Coming from the private sector, I know that any company that produces a truly top quality product has focused on quality for years, if not decades. The USPTO is committed to no less. The programs presented here are just a start. My goal in establishing a brand new department within the USPTO was to focus exclusively on patent quality and the newly created executive level position of Deputy Commissioner for Patent Quality will ensure enhanced quality now, and into the future. With your input we intend to identify additional ways we can enhance patent quality as defined by our patent quality pillars of excellence in work products, excellence in measuring patent quality, and excellence in customer service.

 To that end, we will continue our stakeholder outreach and feedback collection efforts in various ways, such as our monthly Patent Quality Chat webinars. The next Patent Quality Chat webinar on November 10 will focus on the programs presented in this blog and our other quality initiatives. I encourage you to join in regularly to our Patent Quality Chats and visit the Enhanced Patent Quality Initiative page on our website for more information.  The website provides recordings of previous Quality Chats as well as upcoming topics for discussion. We are eager to hear from you about our Enhanced Patent Quality Initiative, so please continue to provide your feedback to WorldClassPatentQuality@uspto.gov(link sends e-mail).  Thank you for collaborating with us on this exciting and important initiative!

 

263 thoughts on “Director Michelle Lee: Moving toward Patent Clarity

  1. 18

    Solving 112 issues are relatively easy.

    1) For 112 6th/112-f require applicant to opt in at the time of filing if they desire claims to be read according to 112 6th/f. Don’t merely presume that they desire it. This fixes some potential 101 issues.

    2) For other 112 issues, require applicant to map their claims to the spec at time of original filing and for each amendment. This is already done at the appeal stage for independent claims. This would also prevent overly broad reads of the claim based on the specification; an examiner can’t come up with wacky interpretations not supported on the specification to just reject the claims.

    1. 18.1

      Feel silly replying to myself.

      If the examiner doesn’t know the art, they can’t really make a proper 112 enablement rejection either. That is a bit more of a problem to solve on the office’s part since they have given more time to examiners on 112 training, than they have on technical training.

      If practitioners want better rejections and better examination they need to get the office to either hire better examiners, or better train examiners on the technology they examine.

      1. 18.1.1

        abcdefg,

        Why would you put the onus on the practitioners….?

        The practitioners already pay for a full complete and accurate examination.

        1. 18.1.1.1

          Well all these 112 issues indicate that they are not getting a full and complete examination. We can do all sorts of hand wringing about the office, or not enough time or sillyness like that, or we can do something relatively easy to solve the problem. Applicant should know exactly which portions of the spec they are referring to when drafting the claims, and mapping the claims out this way should work to their favour by colouring the examiners mind when interpreting the claims.

          Compact prosecution should really be a two way street, though the MPEP makes it largely seem the domain of the examiner. On the otherhand, no one really wins with an overly broad read of the claims during examination.

          1. 18.1.1.1.1

            abcdefg,

            Your point is a good one.

            But notwithstanding what might be “best practices” (which your point speaks to), my point still stands.

            This is just NOT something that can be “forced” onto applicants. It is just not something that is the responsibility of applicants. To force this, is to lose the chance to enforce ACCOUNTABILITY on the Office.

            So, politely, your counter is null to the larger point.

            May I also suggest that you refresh yourself concerning the Tafas case, as your “logic” applied there would have also given an “easy” – but incorrect solution.

    2. 18.2

      #2 is a great idea.

      I also think the office should reinvigorate the best mode requirement. A huge problem is that us examiners waste a lot of time trying to guess at the “inventive concept” leading to irrelevant searching and wasted time.

      If I could know what the best mode is upfront, it would save me a lot of time.

      1. 18.2.1

        “I also think the office should reinvigorate the best mode requirement.”

        It was never “invigorated” in the first place. And with good reason.

        “A huge problem is that us examiners waste a lot of time trying to guess at the ‘inventive concept leading to irrelevant searching and wasted time.”

        Why are you “guessing” at the “inventive concept”? Wouldn’t it just be easier to examine the claims for enablement, written description support, clarity, definiteness, novelty, and non-obviousness?

        “If I could know what the best mode is upfront, it would save me a lot of time.”

        How? Why?

        1. 18.2.1.1

          The problem is when applicants ammend a broad set of claims in an unexpected direction after a first action. The initial art may now be useless, and the office does not provide time for a new on-point search. If an examiner can identify the true inventive concept, the search is more likely to be applicable to the final rejection.

          1. 18.2.1.1.1

            Alexander, you have identified why compact prosecution does not work well. I operates on an assumption that the claims are well drafted, and that dependent claims have the necessary additional limitations to overcome unexpected prior art. But, as we all know, most times the first action/response can be simply about clarifying the claims.

            This is why, I think, every examination should have two searches and two non final actions.

            This, I think, will lead to an overall better examination and better patents.

            1. 18.2.1.1.1.1

              Ned, that sounds like a great idea. I particularly like how it would necessarily mean more examination time but would not be a blank check to examiners since they would owe applicants another action. The end of first-then-final could also improve relations between examiners and attorneys.

          2. 18.2.1.1.2

            Alexander –

            In cases where the amendments are in an unexpected direction, I would guess that 9 times out of 10 you understood quite well what the inventor thought he invented. The unexpected direction is what ever is left after you found pretty good art.

            1. 18.2.1.1.2.1

              That’s very nice Les. I have inklings about 3/5 attorneys, but I keep them to myself because its rude to call people out when I have absolutely no evidence.

          3. 18.2.1.1.3

            “The problem is when applicants amend a broad set of claims in an unexpected direction after a first action.”

            Examiners are supposed to read the application and get an understanding of what applicants claim, and may claim. See MPEP section whatever. I’m too lazy to look it up right now. It’s in chapter 900 somewhere.

            “The initial art may now be useless, and the office does not provide time for a new on-point search.”

            Again, the first search is supposed to be inclusive. That pesky MPEP thing again.

            “If an examiner can identify the true inventive concept, the search is more likely to be applicable to the final rejection.”

            Well, the reason the art for the FOAM may be “useless” is because 1) the examiners don’t read the application and 2) they don’t know how to search. The examiners dump some words from the first claim into the search box, take the first reference or first couple/few references and ask themselves, “Gee, what ridiculous interpretation of the claims can I come up with to make this art fit?”

            Stop doing that, do the job the way the MPEP instructs, and most (all?) of those “problems” will be solved.

            1. 18.2.1.1.3.1

              You’re pretty smug for a guy who just said “wouldn’t it just be easier to examine the claims, for enablement, written description support, clarity, definiteness, novelty, and non-obviousness”.

              With your new opinion, topce is correct: time is wasted when the examiner has to search A+B+(C or D or … Z) when the applicant is really interested in only ABF or ABG.

              1. 18.2.1.1.3.1.1

                “You’re pretty smug for a guy who just said ‘wouldn’t it just be easier to examine the claims, for enablement, written description support, clarity, definiteness, novelty, and non-obviousness’.”

                Smug? All of those issues are well defined and have pretty precise requirements for the examiner to make his/her case. If you think it’s so hard you should be thankful you’re at the PTO, because you’d never make it anywhere else.

              2. 18.2.1.1.3.1.2

                “With your new opinion, topce is correct: time is wasted when the examiner has to search A+B+(C or D or … Z) when the applicant is really interested in only ABF or ABG.”

                How much time does it take to put some new search terms in the box, hit “Enter” and then do the same exercise of shoe horning whatever references pop up in the search list on the amended claims? That’s what examiners do. You know it. I know it. You know I know it. Who you kidding?

                1. I’m in a great mood. Just wrote a reply to a typical lame restriction requirement and added a whole bunch of new dependent claims to the elected group for the examiner to search. I’m sure he’ll figure out that he should have just examined the original 20 claims (which were basically just the same 6 or 7 claims written as method/apparatus/system claims). Now he’s going to be searching for 13 new features, in addition to the original 6 or 7.

                  Have fun!

                2. Yeah that practice should probably be banned. Still, at least this way he doesn’t have to extend the search to either of the method/apparatus/system subclasses. More features, meh, thousands more refs, eh that’s a bigger problem.

                3. Which practice? Lame brained, lazy, improper restriction requirements?

                  I agree whole heartedly.

                  Thanks for the laugh. Been missing them. Where you been?

              3. 18.2.1.1.3.1.3

                You’re pretty smug

                Wrong word.

                There is nothing “smug” about properly pointing out what you should already know.

                You are REQUIRED to read – and understand – the specification in its entirety, and be able to search a priori the possible amendments.

                At the onset, you have EVERYTHING possible the applicant could ever have – right in front of you.

            2. 18.2.1.1.3.2

              “I’m in a great mood. Just wrote a reply to a typical lame restriction requirement and added a whole bunch of new dependent claims to the elected group for the examiner to search. I’m sure he’ll figure out that he should have just examined the original 20 claims (which were basically just the same 6 or 7 claims written as method/apparatus/system claims). Now he’s going to be searching for 13 new features, in addition to the original 6 or 7.

              Have fun!”

              Ladies and gentleman… the problem with the patent system embodied in one human being.

                1. You are being pretty vocal about how you enjoy ruining an examiner’s day. You could have requested an interview and worked with the examiner. Why did you choose not to do so?

                2. You want me to conduct an interview over a restriction requirement? And what was going to be the result of such an interview? I’m obligated to respond in writing, which is what the examiner would have said (“Well, just put your arguments in writing and file it and I’ll consider it.”). Great suggestion.

                  It’s not about ruining the examiner’s day. It’s about letting the examiner know that the usual shenanigans they get away with with the “we want to work with the examiner” and/or “we don’t want to get on the examiner’s bad side” crowd won’t work with me. I paid for an examination of twenty claims. And like I said, there’s really only about 6-7 original claims worth of stuff being claimed, and the other claims are just rewritten versions of those as method and system claims. So instead of giving me what I paid for, and despite the fact that the claims are just basically the same things with different preambles, the examiner decides to try to take the lazy route with a restriction.

                  That’s not going to work with me. I paid for an examination of 20 claims, and that’s what I’m going to get. The examiner can do it the easy way, just like I originally filed, by examining the same 6-7 claims just rewritten twice as method and system claims, or the examiner can do it the hard way by sending a restriction requirement an giving me the opportunity to review the case once more before examination and put in every single possible disclosed but unclaimed feature. It’s the examiner’s choice. Don’t blame me because the examiner chose poorly.

                  And you’d think they’d learn from this experience. But they don’t. I get the same lame brained, lazy, improper restrictions from the same examiners over and over and over. And I do the exact same thing to them. Over and over and over.

                  Unlike Vince for the ShamWow, I can do this all day.

                3. One thing they could do is redraft the MPEP section (800?) concerning restrictions. I personally find that section unreadable. It’s not logical to be able to restrict method and apparatus claims that are basically the same (or receiver and transmitter claims that are basically the same), but the MPEP is so poorly written that it appears you can restrict claims for seemingly no reason. Just say it’s a “combination/subcombination” or use some other nonsense, and you can restrict anything. And if you do restrict claims, refund the money for doing less work (assuming you paid for more than 20/3).

                4. Restriction practice is an abomination.

                  Note those here that “glory” in KSR are also likely the ones to defend the Office practice on restrictions.

                  The two are simply incompatible, and it only shows a lack of ethics for someone to want both (and want it, with little doubt, because of laziness).

      2. 18.2.2

        A huge problem is that us examiners waste a lot of time trying to guess at the “inventive concept” leading to irrelevant searching and wasted time.

        I’m sympathetic to this problem.

        On the practitioner side, I occasionally receive a patent application drafted by another firm, and am asked to see what I can do to move it through prosecution. I look at the claims and see: “A method comprising: A, B, and C” … nothing stands out as the point of novelty. I look at the specification and see: “Figure is a flowchart showing: A, B, and C.” Full stop. In order to figure out what I should focus on, I sometimes have to go back to the original disclosure document.

        I don’t write my cases that way. Every application I’ve ever written goes:

        Within (field of technology), many scenarios require (task), which is often performed by steps (ABC). However, step (B) has the following problems and limitations: …

        In view of these considerations, Fig. 2 presents an alternative technique for (task), involving (AXC). The use of (X) may present the following advantages, particularly as compared with (B) …

        Accordingly, I claim: A method comprising: (A), (X), and (C).

        This same narrative story is retold in the abstract, and in the background-plus-brief-summary. I can’t imagine how I could better characterize the point of novelty, in a plain and readable way.

        And yet, probably 50% of the first office actions I receive cite art that has nothing to do with (X) – indeed, often, the art simply recites: (ABC). It usually takes until the second round of examination for examiners to cite art that’s even relevant to (AXC) – and, in a small but significant set of cases, it takes a pre-appeal brief.

        Why does this happen? Are these examiners so accustomed to bad specifications that they don’t even bother reading them any more? Do they just flip right to the claims, and try to guess at what’s new?

      3. 18.2.3

        On the practitioner side, I occasionally receive a patent application drafted by another firm, and am asked to see what I can do to move it through prosecution. I look at the claims and see: “A method comprising: A, B, and C” … nothing stands out as the point of novelty. I look at the specification and see: “Figure is a flowchart showing: A, B, and C.” Full stop. In order to figure out what I should focus on, I sometimes have to go back to the original disclosure document.

        I don’t write my cases that way. Every application I’ve ever written goes:

        Within (field of technology), many scenarios require (task), which is often performed by steps (ABC). However, step (B) has the following problems and limitations: …

        In view of these considerations, Fig. 2 presents an alternative technique for (task), involving (AQC). The use of (Q) may present the following advantages, particularly as compared with (B) …

        Accordingly, I claim: A method comprising: (A), (Q), and (C).

        Despite this structure, about 50% of the first office actions I receive cite art that has nothing to do with (Q) – indeed, often, the art simply recites: (ABC). It usually takes until the second round of examination for examiners to cite art that’s even relevant to (AQC) – and, in a small but significant set of cases, it takes a pre-appeal brief.

        Why does this happen? Are these examiners so accustomed to bad specifications that they don’t even bother reading them any more? Do they just flip right to the claims, and try to guess at what’s new?

        1. 18.2.3.1

          David, may I suggest you review In re Morris. Our spec showed the prior art, discussed its problems, provided a solution. We called the solution X, and claimed X.

          Despite that, the examiner construed X to read on the very prior art that we had said was insufficient. That was sustained on appeal by the Federal Circuit.

          If you wonder why I am no fan of BRI, Morris is the reason.

          1. 18.2.3.1.1

            I’ve had several similar cases, Ned – including one before the PTAB where the examiner has just characterized the central point of our invention as “obvious” over the conventional technique, citing a reference that only shows the conventional technique.

            It’s a blatant effort to flush the application down the drain just because the examiner doesn’t like it. It is far outside the bounds of what examiners are allowed to do – and yet, the PTAB is such a roll of the dice that I’m not confident they will do the right thing.

          2. 18.2.3.1.2

            Ned,

            You and your (anti-software) pal blew the Morris case.

            You have no one to blame but yourself.

        2. 18.2.3.2

          Granted, most examiners do not look at the specification.

          However…

          Your ABC/AQC sounds like a problem of claiming. It shouldn’t be necessary to read the specification for the claims to differentiate ABC and AQC. Furthermore, why would the examiner even search for or report on ABC if she hadn’t read the specification and you claimed AQC? Knowing absolutely nothing else, it sounds like you didn’t sufficiently claim Q.

          1. 18.2.3.2.1

            Frankly, in many of these cases, the examiners simply do not understand the technology area – not even at a fundamental level.

            I had an examiner confuse the concepts of:

            (a) Partitioning a query into sub-queries, each applying a subset of the logical operations in a sequence, and applying each sub-query in the sequence to the database; and

            (b) Partitioning the database into subsets and applying the entire query to each subset.

            This examiner regarded everything involving the terms “partition” and “database,” used in proximity with each other, as basically the same thing.

            I had an examiner confuse the concepts of:

            (a) Polling a data set at a certain frequency, such as querying the database once every 10 seconds for updates; and

            (b) Communicating with the database server at a certain radiofrequency.

            The case had nothing to do with wireless technology of any sort: this examiner simply had a background in EE / RF communication, and had been assigned a complicated invention in the field of databases.

            I had an examiner confuse the concepts of:

            (a) Compressing a data set into compressed-size blocks and recording the variable size of the compressed block; and

            (b) Recording a hashcode for each fixed-size chunk of a data set (e.g., each 1kb sequential block of data). Nothing in the reference mentioned compression for any reason.

            There is no justification for these fundamental errors. No one with a passing familiarity with computers should confuse a claim calling out (a) in pretty straightforward language, with a reference teaching (b).

          2. 18.2.3.2.2

            Granted, most examiners do not look at the specification.

            However…

            However WHAT?

            How about you do your Fn job?

        3. 18.2.3.3

          A lot of the time yes, unfortunately.

          How long are your specs normally if you don’t mind me asking?

          Also, how broadly do you normally claim Q? A lot of the time, B will read on Q through BRI.

          1. 18.2.3.3.1

            The parts of the specification that recite the problem and solution are maybe five pages. They’re pretty readable – light on boilerplate, using ordinary terminology in the technical field, and coordinated with a diagram showing a step-by-step interaction. It’s not like the examiner would need to blow six hours reading 30 pages of disclosure to understand it.

            1. 18.2.3.3.1.1

              You seem like you have a lot of bad luck toward getting competent examiners. If this is all true, I sincerely feel bad for you.

              1. 18.2.3.3.1.1.1

                My dear topce,

                Your rampant mistakes as to patent law here on the blog paint you as not of those competent examiners.

                And as much as I criticize certain examiners, I do deal with capable and competent ones.

                Those, though, tend not to get the law so very wrong on blogs.

                (and that’s not a coincidence)

              2. 18.2.3.3.1.1.2

                There is definitely a problem of perception here.

                Good examiners tend to generalize their mindset to all examiners. And they interact with the full spectrum of practitioners – good and bad (and there are more bad than good) – so they tend to have a lower opinion of the average practitioner.

                By the same token: Good practitioners tend to generalize their mindset to all practitioners. And they interact with the full spectrum of examiners – good and bad (and there are more bad than good) – so they tend to have a lower opinion of the average examiner.

                I have certainly encountered good examiners: diligent, technically well-informed, eager to explain, eager to listen, eager to admit their mistakes but also eager to call out my errors. I try my best to give these examiners kudos: I thank them for their work, note them to their supervisors and to my clients – I even posted a few positive reviews on ExaminerWatchdog when that was a thing.

                But there are so, so many bad examiners out there… we can’t just dismiss them as an anomaly. PTO administration is doing nothing to identify and weed out these people. It is doing everyone a disservice by allowing bad examiners to do shoddy work without penalty, keep their jobs, and drag down the standard of examination.

                1. It is more than just a question of perception, David.

                  Yes it is true that there are “bad practitioners.”

                  But those “bad practitioners” do not make it a habit to come onto a legal blog and share just how bad they are.

                  And yet, as I pointed out, that is EXACTLY the case with the rather large majority of examiners that post here.

                  I know that there are one or two that post thoughtfully and are willing to actually acknowledge the law (or who post with full knowledge of the law and express themselves well as expressing how they want the law to be different – without pretending that the law already is how they would like it to be).

                  But look at what we have: dross. Not only that, but they are proud of their dross and celebrate the b@n@l rants of Malcolm and other anti-patentists.

                  There be a VERY clear difference there.

                2. …and on top of that, when the subject RIGHTFULLY comes up on improving examination, they are the very first to attempt to shuck their responsibilities and blame applicants.

                  There is a single word missing from the Office and its examiners that is at the core of the problem: ACCOUNTABILITY.

                  Get that in the examining corp and you will see the problems disappear.

                  Guaranteed.

                3. There is a single word missing from the Office and its examiners that is at the core of the problem: ACCOUNTABILITY.

                  That’s beyond question at this point. The OIG Report provides overwhelming evidence that anything goes at the PTO:

                  96% of GS-13 examiners with partial signatory authority are rated as “commendable” or “outstanding.”

                  During the period of FY 2011 through FY 2013, of the approximately 6,000 to 8,000 patent examiners employed by USPTO during this time, only 7 examiners received written warnings for low-quality decisions. An individual who received a written warning under the quality element still received an overall rating of “commendable” in the end-of-year rating.

                  From FY 2011 to FY 2013, examiners with an error rate identified by an OPQA independent reviewer still received an “outstanding” or “commendable” quality rating over 95 percent of the time.

                  The current standards often make it difficult to justify giving an examiner a rating other than “outstanding.” Errors can be found in 75 – and even 100 – percent of the cases reviewed, yet an examiner could still obtain a rating of “fully successful” or higher on the quality performance element.

                  These metrics speak for themselves – they are indefensible.

    3. 18.3

      The Statute already requires the Applicant to opt in. One opts in by using the phrase “means for” or “step for.” Its the courts that have muddied the water.

    4. 18.4

      abcef’ng, I second your motion.

      I am now including all my specs a statement to the effect that I do not intend any claim to be governed by 112(f) unless it uses “means for” in the claim.

      It also used to be standard operating procedure at Seagate to require its applications to include a set of “claims” with reference numerals in the summary of the invention section in order that such “claims” might be copied for PCT-application purposes. This actually is pretty good practice for anybody writing an application the United States today. So, making the requirement in the rules would actually help most Americans write claims that could be used in the PCT applications and also educate anyone unfamiliar with the application where the various claim elements are supported.

  2. 17

    PTO management acts like the majority of the PTO’s examiners are diligently and competently working in good faith to make accurate assessments of patentability. Applicants routinely subjected to the examiners’ near-gibberish articulations of obviousness, etc., know otherwise.

    1. 17.1

      “PTO management acts like the majority of the PTO’s examiners are diligently and competently working in good faith to make accurate assessments of patentability.”

      This of course is the fault of us examiners and not the count system or management.

      Do you know how much time we get to respond to your arguments? Just take a guess.

      1. 17.1.1

        Do you know how much time we get to respond to your arguments? Just take a guess.

        Not
        My
        Problem

        Stop trying to make your problem into someone else’s.

          1. 17.1.1.1.1

            Also everyone in the system has skin in the game. You can repeat that it isn’t your problem over and over but it really is partly your responsibility to, for example, not write 50 pages of arguments.

            1. 17.1.1.1.1.1

              If your 20 page office action includes 20 103 rejections that are each wrong three different ways : 1 ref one doesn’t show what you say it shows, ref 2 doesn’t say what it shows and there was no motivation to combine, and oh by the way, to apply ref 1 you need the provisional date and the provisional (which you didn’t even glance at) doesn’t even support the paragraphs you cited, I’m gonna need a coupla pages to address each rejection.

              I don’t wanna. You made me.

              1. 17.1.1.1.1.1.1

                Seems like you had an incompetent examiner. Sorry to hear.

                Do you need a shoulder to cry on before you address widespread practices instead of special cases?

                1. If it were a special case, I wouldn’t have mentioned it. It’s typical.

                  …and if you are receiving 50 page responses….

                2. That is every case? I sincerely doubt it. Most of my arguments are 10 pages are less. The rare 50 pagers seem to go on and on about nonsense and are totally off point. The writing is horrid in most of them.

                3. Well….its the majority of cases. For example, I have a 19 page Final on my desk now.

                  Claim 1 was previously rejected in view of a combination of 3 documents, none of which were actually prior art on their own. All required reliance on provisional applications for an early enough date. All claimed priority to multiple provisionals. None of the rejections cited support in the provisionals. I reviewed all of the provisionals and traversed the rejections based on lack of support in both the cited documents and the provisionals.

                  The examiner continues to cite document 1 but dropped documents 2 and 3 in favor of documents 4 and 5. With regard to document 1 he is at least citing the provisionals for support of SOME, but not all, of the of the cited paragraphs. The new grounds of rejection were clearly required by the fact that documents 2 and 3 were not actually prior art. Nevertheless, the OA declares that the new grounds were required by the minor amendments to the claims.

                  So, I’m going to have to burn pages and time traversing the finality, then traversing the rejections…..

                4. If you’re writing “pages” to traverse the propriety of the finality, you’re doing it wrong.

                  Just saying. 🙂

          2. 17.1.1.1.2

            I’d be more accepting of this argument if I didn’t regularly see office actions that couldn’t have taken more than 60 seconds to prepare.

            Non-Final Office Action:

            Claim 1, reciting elements (ABC), is rejected because Reference X teaches A (column 10, lines 1-63) and B (column 2, line 10 through column 8, line 43), and one of ordinary skill in the art would be motivated to add C to AB because it would make the invention better.

            Final Office Action:

            Claim 1, reciting elements (ABC), is rejected because Reference X teaches A (column 10, lines 1-63) and B (column 2, line 10 through column 8, line 43), and one of ordinary skill in the art would be motivated to add C to AB because it would make the invention better.

            Response to Arguments:

            The applicant argues that Reference X does not teach A or B. However, this argument is not persuasive because (copy and paste the above). Therefore, the rejection is final.

            How many hours were allotted to the examiner for that?

              1. 17.1.1.1.2.1.1

                I’m skeptical that is what actually went down though but if it did, that is awful and I am sincerely sorry that that happened to you. That is quite frankly, a B$ rejection.

                1. I’m skeptical that is what actually went down though

                  Why? because you think yourself to be so awesome….?

                  You really need to get a c1ue.

  3. 16

    Ugh more of the same from management.

    Just trying to make it appear they are changing things all while things stay the same.

    1. 16.1

      Nothing will change at the PTO until they can find a way to create efficient dialogue between examiners and attorneys.

      The amount of time I waste on things that could be solved with a phone call is astounding.

      Do examiners have a responsibility to put anything on the record? We shouldn’t because that only affects the patent applicant during litigation.

      Just get out of the way and let us do our jobs. Our job is to find the best prior art and put it on the record.

      Why are we defining terms and doing 112(f)sand (a)s and (b)s and (d)s ? Why are we cleaning up poorly drafted claims? Why are we restricting cases that are drafted by attorneys who don’t understand MPEP 800?

      Why cant we expedite a case to allowance without having to jump through hoops at the cost of meeting production?

      This just makes the job less efficient, more burdensome. It helps nobody except for the public perception of the office.

      1. 16.1.1

        I can’t really agree with your gripe. Housekeeping is a necessary part of a persuasive product. If you can save time with a phone call, make the phone call. Etc.

        And if you’re not taking 112(a) seriously, you’re doing the public a disservice.

          1. 16.1.1.1.1

            “Housekeeping” duties are not typically assigned to the people who get paid the most.

            However in this case it’s irrelevant. Housekeeping is a necessary part of a persuasive product. It applies to examiners and attorneys.

            1. 16.1.1.1.1.1

              ‘“Housekeeping” duties are not typically assigned to the people who get paid the most.’

              But i thought “if you’re not taking 112(a) seriously, you’re doing the public a disservice?”

              1. 16.1.1.1.1.1.1

                I’m actually confused by what you’re saying.

                In my head, housekeeping is 112(b),(d), and any objections. So I’m not sure how that is connected to 112(a), which is something that applicants have almoat no motivation to consider.

                I was trying to point out that the people who pick up the trash generally get paid less than the people who make the trash.

                1. “I was trying to point out that the people who pick up the trash generally get paid less than the people who make the trash.”

                  A commentary on our patent system and our society right there.

                2. It’s also a commentary on your lack of grasping reality.

                  But please, let’s see you pull a Malcolm and accuse someone else while you are shoveling.

                  What was your “mission” again: “I have been on a campaign to discredit everything you say.

                  It’s not working because what I say is accurate.

        1. 16.1.1.3

          “And if you’re not taking 112(a) seriously, you’re doing the public a disservice”

          When was the last time you saw a full Wands factor analysis done by an examiner?

          The Office doesn’t take 112(a) seriously, I agree. Don’t make it about me though

          1. 16.1.1.3.1

            I am not saying that 112 should be ignored as much as it should be the applicant’s responsibility to not file claims full of 112 issues.

            1. 16.1.1.3.1.1

              it should be the applicant’s responsibility

              No.

              Stop being lazy and do the job that you were hired to do.

              There already is a consequence for any applicant who does not do “their job” – a proper rejection.

              1. 16.1.1.3.1.1.1

                “There already is a consequence for any applicant who does not do “their job” – a proper rejection.”

                Circular argument. We don’t give enough 112 rejections (the whole post is about this), reason being is “compact prosecution.” If we could ping you back for your drafting errors then we are getting somewhere.

                1. It is NOT circular, and you are further not doing your Fn job if you are hiding behind some LAME excuse for not making the proper rejections.

                  You do know that you HAVE TO make all of the proper rejections – even with “compact prosecution” right?

          2. 16.1.1.3.2

            “When was the last time you saw a full Wands factor analysis done by an examiner?”

            In 16+ years of practice, not even once.

            1. 16.1.1.3.2.1

              Right so all I am saying is that somebody other than examiners (probably attorneys) should deal with 112 issues given the time constraints we have.

              1. 16.1.1.3.2.1.1

                How often is enablement an issue in the cases you’re examining? What, maybe 1%? How often are you actually required to do a full Wands analysis?

                With written description, under Hyatt v. Dudas all the examiner has to do to establish a prima facie case is just question where support for a particular feature or claim is provided in the application? How hard is that?

                112(b) rejections are, for the most part, caused by examiners thinking that applicants are required to claim what the examiner, instead of the applicant, regards as the invention. Stop doing that, and you’ll stop wasting your time. And our time.

                1. “112(b) rejections are, for the most part, caused by examiners thinking that applicants are required to claim what the examiner, instead of the applicant, regards as the invention. Stop doing that, and you’ll stop wasting your time. And our time”

                  What does that even mean in practice?

                2. I get a lot of rejections that go something like this, “Claim 1 is indefinite because it is unclear how element A is connected to element B.”

                  And my response to that is always, “That’s nice, but for the purpose of this claim, we don’t regard how A and B are connected to be part of the invention claimed.”

                  Usually any 112, 2nd/112(b) rejection that I get that starts with, “It is unclear…” is an attempt by the examiner to get me to write the claim the way the examiner wants the claim written. That’s not a proper rejection under 112, 2nd/112(b).

                3. AAA JJ, if the applicant and the examiner disagree on what the claims are claiming, and both can support their views, what does that say about the definiteness of the claims?

                  Ultimately, this is a loser for the applicant; he or she should fix the ambiguity with an amendment.

                  Post grant — it all depends. But a true ambiguity can lead to a verdict of invalidity.

      2. 16.1.2

        “Do examiners have a responsibility to put anything on the record? We shouldn’t because that only affects the patent applicant during litigation.”

        What? Opinions on patent validity/invalidity and infringement/non-infringement are written every day. Licensing negotiations go on every day.

        You need to get out more. Or just out.

        1. 16.1.2.1

          “What? Opinions on patent validity/invalidity and infringement/non-infringement are written every day. Licensing negotiations go on every day.”

          You are diverting the point away from whose responsibility it is.

            1. 16.1.2.1.1.1

              -1 for personal attack.

              Says the guy who mindlessly joined in first on a personal attack of me on this thread…

              1. 16.1.2.1.1.1.1

                You are pointing out hypocrisy. That’s fair. But I am just saying that personal attacks are not persuasive. I didn’t intend to persuade you, just to help create a consensus about you on this forum.

                If you haven’t noticed, I have been on a campaign to discredit everything you say. I believe you garner too much respect on this forum. You need to be exposed so experienced practitioners are not afraid to comment here anymore.

                1. You’re in the wrong here topce…

                  There’s no reason to believe anyone on thia forum has respect for anon.

                2. “If you haven’t noticed, I have been on a campaign to discredit everything you say.”

                  Maybe you should focus on understanding Zurko first. And then maybe do 5 seconds of research before telling all of us, incorrectly, because it’s based on something you think you might have possibly remembered being told, “Lee was an examiner.”

                  You’ve been wrong here more times than any of us can count. Maybe raise your own batting average a bit, say at least above the Mendoza line, before trying to “discredit” others.

                  Just a suggestion.

                3. I didn’t intend to persuade you, just to help create a consensus about you on this forum.

                  LOL – you intend to be an arse, and in that you have succeeded.

                  Here’s a hint: get the law right before you go about trying to create a consensus about someone else (who does get the law right).

      3. 16.1.3

        “The amount of time I waste on things that could be solved with a phone call is astounding.”

        The way to “fix” that is to find a supervisor that believes in doing that (its called compact prosecution when done quickly) and then work for them.

          1. 16.1.3.1.1

            I love how having to fix all the applicant’s drafting errors is called “compact prosecution.”

                1. I cannot redraft your claims for you on first OA.

                  Maybe you want to try again, as I was perfectly clear that no one is asking you to do so.

                  On the other hand, what you ARE supposed to do, THAT, I am asking you to do.

                  Not sure why you are getting your und1es in a bunch over that.

      4. 16.1.4

        “The amount of time I waste on things that could be solved with a phone call is astounding. ”

        By all means, make the call.

  4. 15

    Is it fair to guess that the clarity of the record pilot will be received with the same enthusiasm as the glossary pilot?

      1. 15.1.1

        Really, you can’t Google it?

        2014-2015. “Get your first action treated as special for free if you include a definitive glossary.” 170 or so takers. Not exactly indicative of an overwhelming demand on applicants’ part for clarity.

  5. 14

    The best way to improve quality: better searches. They should up the fee and add an additional $1,000 for search. Imagine if the best art was cited in the OA (so, an IPR couldn’t improve on it), then the burden is really on the applicant to make sure the claims are patentable over the cited art. I am not sure why people don’t get this simple truth.

    Also, I’ll note that Director Lee has no experience doing prosecution and yet was put in charge of 8,000 examiners. I’d bet that she would have great difficulty reading an Office Action. And this is the person that Obama put in charge of increasing quality. What a joke.

    1. 14.1

      This more on the record stuff is just ridiculous. The only thing that really matters are the allowed claims and the art. The rest is secondary. But then Lee has no way of knowing anything about prosecution.

      1. 14.1.1

        I agree.

        But what about giving more time and guidance to examiners to search?

        Why do they have to keep upping fees.

    2. 14.2

      Increasing fees as to increase the time examiners receive for searching is the most obvious step towards patent quality. Which group has the most to lose from this tactic? POPA, USPTO Management, or the Patent Bar?

      1. 14.2.1

        You do know that you can increase time without increasing fees (directly), right?

        That power has been with the Office for some time now.

        1. 14.2.1.1

          So your think that the bar is desperate for more examination time, and that it’s Lee and POPA conspiring to deny applicants quality searches.

          Why, I bet your submission to Lee during the quality-comments period cried out for more extensive examination.

          Was it a sonnet, expressing your burning desire for NPL searches for functional claims?

          Or perhaps it was a deeply ironic haiku demanding nitpicky consideration of 112.

          Do share!

          1. 14.2.1.1.1

            in pieces due to the filter….

            Try again and read what I wrote:

            Did i say that the bar was “desperate for more examination time“?

            NO.

            What I did say was that examination time is NOT my problem.

            I have paid for something else, than ANY mere “quota” of examination time.

            Examination time is an internal Office metric – one between you and the Office. S T O P trying to externalize your own Fn problems.

            1. 14.2.1.1.1.1

              Further – perhaps you are “too new” or perhaps you just never actually listened, but I LOVE a better and high quality examination, even if (especially if) it means that I cannot have a rubber stamp of Accept Accept Accept.

              You really don’t get what an attorney does for his clients, do you? You have drunk too deeply of the anti’s here, and their (purported) self lo@th1ng.

              Real attorneys want real examination so that the patents earned can be really enforced.

    3. 14.3

      I agree, Night Writer, the key is better searches and better rejections over the art. The Applicant will be forced to more clearly define over the cited art. (101 issues will also be significantly reduced.)

      1. 14.4.1

        Her biography does not include any prosecution experience. Her biography does not include “examiner.” I don’t know what “FWTW” means.

          1. 14.4.1.1.1

            For what it’s worth, you would do well to simply stop making things up as you go.

            And stop being m@d at people who call your B$ for what it is.

          1. 14.4.2.1.1

            ^^^ and wrong again.

            Funny it is that you seem to find it difficult that “the world” just does not see things as you do. You have been in some severe ec(h)osystem for far far far too long.

    1. 13.1

      You want “heavy-handed”…?

      Check the censorship about the censorship and the continuing silly block of IP addresses.

      It’s not as if such silliness does NOT create a certain perception (whether or not – or how many times – the censor attempts to stop the expression of ideas very much tied to this forum and all)…

  6. 12

    I do note that one of the items includes the suggestion that I made awhile back (and that the usual cohorts of examiners here balked against).

    I wonder if the examiners still feel that being explicit upfront and putting their rationales on the record will be “too much work”…

      1. 12.1.1

        Not sure exactly what “rant” you want to be ready for….

        But you are aware of what an applicant pays for and what that exchange is set at – right?

        Hint: it is NOT the internal measure that you are QQing about.

        1. 12.1.1.1

          I wouldn’t be against less fees if more substance was required from applicants. If that is your position then I agree with it.

          But I am guessing you want fees to be lowered so you can submit GI so we can spit out GO for your clients at a lower cost. Then you can bill them the same amount and pocket more $$$.

          1. 12.1.1.1.1

            “But I am guessing you want fees to be lowered so you can submit GI so we can spit out GO for your clients at a lower cost. Then you can bill them the same amount and pocket more $$$.”

            It’s very clear why you failed in private practice.

          2. 12.1.1.1.2

            more substance was required from applicants

            How new are you? Are you familiar with the Tafas case?

            You should spend more time with things like that and less time showing off your “I am wrong again” badges.

  7. 11

    I will say that Lee is vastly superior to Kappos in terms of actually making an effort to teach Examiners what they need to know. There’s been constant 112a/b/f 101 trainings since she took over. Whether Kappos was more hamstrung over having to give us time to adopt the CPC or whether Lee is just that much better, I don’t know. But for better or worse Lee sees an overbreadth problem and has gone to great lengths to hit it from every angle. I’m a big fan.

    1. 11.1

      Exactly what is the training for 112f and 101? Can we (non-Examiners) see this training?

      By the way, I’m getting tired of secret groups within the patent office, where you can’t talk to the secret group. For instance, I discussed an amendment to get around a 101/Alice rejection. The Examiner said he had to pass the amendment by quality control, then called me back and said that quality control wouldn’t approve it. Why? It’s unclear. So, the Examiner can’t approve it because “quality control” won’t approve it, but I have nothing in writing from the “quality control” group, I can’t contact this group, and I may have to appeal something where the reasoning does not come from the Examiner but instead comes from some internal PTO group. If the PTO wants to do this, let me have access to that group or at least have them memorialize their reasoning.

      1. 11.1.2

        PB: For instance, I discussed an amendment to get around a 101/Alice rejection.

        Show everyone the claim and your proposed amendment.

        Oh wait — you want to keep it “secret”.

        But you also want to complain about how terribly unfair life is for your poor, poor imaginary client.

        Please give us a break already.

      2. 11.1.3

        I would entirely respect your frustration if it was impossible to request a 101 point-of-contact to be present during an interview.

        Since it IS possible…

        1. 11.1.4.1

          “Probably a QAS. An supposed expert on these matters/case law and not on art.”

          QAS’s are not experts on anything except collecting GS-15 money for doing absolutely nothing.

          Best gig in the entire federal government work force, without a doubt. Congrats to every one of them for figuring out how to get paid by doing nothing.

      3. 11.1.5

        The solution is to memorialize what ever gibberish (or unclear reasoning) the Examiner gave you in an Telephone Interview Summary and in the Appeal Brief and challenge that.

        Of course, if the Board speaks gibberish, they may not see if for what it is…

      4. 11.1.6

        By the way, I’m getting tired of secret groups within the patent office, where you can’t talk to the secret group.

        This is a misunderstanding of how the office works. There’s always someone to talk to, and its the person with signatory power. If the examiner has his own signatory power, the examiner can choose to reject or not reject as he sees fit. If he doesn’t have signatory power, the signatory (usually his SPE) has the power to reject or not as they see fit.

        You have a junior examiner whose SPE saw the claims and said “I think this is a 101, check the 101 people” (specialized people up on the 101 cases) and the junior did and they said it was a 101 and his SPE signed it. So yeah the 101 people ultimately decided it, but you can always talk to the signatory to control whether the rejection is maintained.

        Submitting a claim to the 101 taskforce doesn’t just happen, someone decides to do it – either the examiner or his signatory. That person can choose to adopt their reasoning or not.

        And I really doubt anyone would call the 101 group a secret by any meaning of the word.

  8. 10

    “We are working to unify the review process for all reviewers and systematically record the same and all review results through an online form, called the “master review form,” which we intend to share with the public. ”

    I’m glad to hear that. I hope the form itself actually helps guide the reviewer through the many hurdles of actually reviewing something.

    1. 10.1

      “systematically record”

      Because the rule is already that ALL examination is to be on the written record…

      What an admission by Lee here.

      I SAWS that.
      Did everyone else SAWS that too…?

      1. 10.1.1

        I’m not sure a review of an examination previously performed is yet another examination anon or even necessarily a continuation thereof.

        1. 10.1.1.1

          6,

          Of course they are – see the post by PatentBob.

          The Office openly (oops) admitted that SAWS is but one of an untold number of such Star Chamber “not on the written record” shenanigans going on.

            1. 10.1.1.1.2.1

              Does not need an “expert voice in administrative matters” to connect the dots, 6 (and to see that Alexander is employing that vaunted “examiner logic”…)

              1. 10.1.1.1.2.1.1

                Anon you are a notoriously horrendous player of the game “connect the dots”. You make up dots as you go along. You draw dots to the wrong dots. It’s entirely too complex for you.

                1. 6 – just because you F A I L, does not mean that I am a “notoriously horrible player.”

                  Please tell me that you are not slipping back into that “projecting mode” thing again…

  9. 9

    These “initiatives” reek of a negotiated settlement between PTO brass and the examiner corps.

    I’m glad I’m not currently active in the patent system. To me it represented mostly aggravation.

  10. 8

    OT but I’m pretty sure a record was set today for the most repeated use of The Worst Word Ever in a Federal Circuit oral argument.

    In re Brunetti concerns the denial of a trademark on “F.U.C.T.”

    There’s some interesting discussion of In re Tam but, dang, what is it with some attorneys making arguments that are worse than frivolous? Try to believe the applicant’s attorney here arguing that the mark is pronounced “Eff Ee See Tee” while his client’s website shows little kids wearing shirts with the mark and whipping the bird (hahahahahah — super funny).

    IP lawyers say the darndest things. The written opinion should be interesting.

    1. 8.1

      The Federal Circuit does seem to have to endure a lot of very questionable appeals. You and I both know from listening to oral arguments that the Federal Circuit judges are exasperated by these oral arguments in the frivolity of the positions offered by the attorneys. If you watch these things in person you see that the judges have very “unhappy” expressions on their faces when attorneys drone on and on and on ignoring the fact that the court is extremely unhappy with having to put up with their presence and their arguments.

      Perhaps the court needs a rule whereby it will “allow” oral argument only by permission of the court.

      1. 8.1.1

        The Fed. Cir. has the capability to sanction frivolous appeals, but apparently has not used it in years?

        1. 8.1.1.1

          The primary basis of this appeal is the constitutionality of the “no scandalous marks” statute (the In Re Tam issue).

          If the applicant wins that argument, it’s a good bet that he’ll be applying for trademarks on stuff far more scandalous and/or disparaging than “F.U.C.T.”

  11. 7

    I’m extremely upbeat about Director Lee’s remarks about reforming the review process.

    Much of what Director Lee wrote was also central to my comments about the OPQA – namely: the collection of data is so sparse, superficial, and subjective that it’s meaningless. A random sample of less than one OA per examiner per year cannot yield any substantiated conclusions. The PTO has been flying blind as far as substantively assessing the performance of examiners and art units.

    Now, as for § 112 – the PTO can achieve this objective in one of two ways:

    1) As a cooperative effort between the applicant and examiner to clarify § 112 issues for pending applications. Make examiners identify potential ambiguity; make the examiner and applicant discuss it; make both the examiner and applicant state their intended meaning on the record.

    2) As a punitive measure: encourage examiners to flush any cases they don’t like down the § 112 hole at will.

    The first option would be well-adopted, and would lead to a cooperative improvement of issuing patents. The second option would exacerbate tension between the USPTO and applicants, and might get the USPTO dragged into a Tafas-v.-Dudas-like lawsuit.

    Which way will it go? Difficult to say, especially given the incoherent response of the USPTO to § 101: at the same time that OPLA is working hard to identify patent-eligible subject matter and claims, TC 3600 is wielding Alice like a scythe to clear-cut their dockets down to nothing, and the PTAB is letting through almost every § 101 rejection that reaches the opinion stage.

    1. 7.1

      OPLA is working hard to identify patent-eligible subject matter

      Really? It’s pretty easy to do. I wonder why they are having such difficulty.

      1. 7.1.1

        I wonder why they are having such difficulty.

        To some, the means to the ends is pretty DAMM important.

    2. 7.2

      DS: Make examiners identify potential ambiguity; make the examiner and applicant discuss it; make both the examiner and applicant state their intended meaning on the record

      Time for the Office to begin recording telephonic Interviews with applicants and making the recordings part of the file. How many fold cheaper is memory now compared to when we first discussed this solution 6 or 7 years ago? Fifty times cheaper?

      1. 7.2.1

        That’s a great idea. Good luck getting the examining corps to agree to have them recorded.

        1. 7.2.1.1

          Besides being correct as to the pushback from the Office side (and yes, you can be sure that that is the side that has far more to lose with things put on the record), there is an important aspect that should be put on the table (again):

          Efficiency.

          By this I mean that the most likely result will merely be a more inefficient dialogue given the presence of reality. I just don’t understand how Malcolm wants to play the “born yesterday” role on this topic, as clearly any decent attorney can see that negotiations will be less effectively conducted with his penchant for full recordings.

          Mind you, I don’t mind the idea per se – but to ig nore reality is just not very smart.

      2. 7.2.2

        MM, we are actually in agreement on something! I’ve always thought that it’s absurd that an hour long telephone discussion can be distilled down to 1-2 sentences in an Examiner interview summary. I’m in favor of a complete record that contains formal and informal (email) written correspondence, text conversion of telephone audio, etc.

      3. 7.2.3

        Both the examining corps and applicants are opposed to that notion.

        The entire purpose of an interview is to enable a candid discussion of the state of the application. Examiners want to discuss the subject invention and the references; to explain their understanding, which may be completely wrong; and to admit to what they don’t understand. Applicants want to discuss the claims and options for amendments, without getting tied down to prosecution history estoppel (which, of course, only applies to the applicant’s detriment – it is never binding against the examiner, nor helpful to the applicant).

        These types of conversations can only occur during an interview off the record. It’s the easiest and best way to advance examination and prosecution – to identify and resolve miscommunication, and to work out sticking-points that really shouldn’t require the involvement of the SPE or the board.

        A procedural shift that captures a recording of the interview, and makes it part of the record, would have the effect of shutting down communication between the examiner and applicant. Examination would become more contentious. Deadlocks, churn, and the appeal rate will all go way up.

        It’s a terrible idea that USPTO administration throws out there on occasion, and it always evaporates without effect – because it’s completely not worth the consequences.

        1. 7.2.3.1

          David – you should have noticed is was not the USPTO administration that threw out that idea again here (unless you think that Malcolm only plays pretend to be an attorney representing clients with applications for patents and is not really just an Office wonk…)

          😉

          1. 7.2.3.1.1

            A surprising number of practitioners don’t recognize the value of examiner interviews.

            On more than one occasion at the conclusion of an in-person interview at the USPTO, an examiner has confided that it’s one of only a handful of such interviews that the examiners have conducted through years of practice. How many practitioners operate in the DC area? Especially Oblon Spivak, which is located right on the USPTO’s doorstep? Why are these examiners not flooded with requests for in-person interviews from local practitioners?

            1. 7.2.3.1.1.1

              Agreed x 10000000.

              Instead of an interview I get fifty pages of arguments that I get at most 2-3 hours to respond to. And then applicants wonder why I am sitting on their cases.

              1. 7.2.3.1.1.1.1

                If you only get 2-3 hours to respond (which is BS by the way), how is sitting on the case helping you to get your response done? And come on, how much time does it really take to insert the form paragraphs on “can’t attack the references individually,” “the test for obviousness is not bodily incorporation,” and/or “it is recognized that all conclusions of obviousness rely on hindsight, however as long as…”?

                I mean seriously, 90+% of what I get in “response” from the examiners is form paragraphs. And the PTO considers that to be “record breaking outstanding quality.” So what’s the problem?

                1. “which is BS by the way”

                  Uh, care to defend that statement? A primary in a 20 hour BD currently gets 2.16 for a final response. In the highest BD arts its 3.24 hours. That amount of time is for argument responses and more importantly, any further search due to amendments.

                2. “Uh, care to defend that statement?”

                  Sure. You examiners are the ones that wanted counts for final rejections. So Kappos threw you a bone and gave you .25 counts for a final rejection. If you have to actually account for that time, that’s on you. You asked for it. You got it.

                  Uhm, care to respond to my comment that most of these “responses” that examiners are struggling so diligently to turn out in 2-3 hours are 90% form paragraphs? I doubt you do. Because you know it’s true. I know it too. And you know I know. So there.

              2. 7.2.3.1.1.1.2

                And then applicants wonder why I am sitting on their cases.

                Do I hear a sense of retaliation….?

                It’s too bad you are so new topce, you would have loved the RCE gravy train….

              1. 7.2.3.1.1.2.1

                It’s true – my comment wasn’t directly responsive to your post at 7.2.3.1.

                As for the PTO’s relationship with this idea… I get very mixed signals. Sometimes the administration really seems adamant about driving forward with this agenda; sometimes they seem to understand the pragmatism of keeping it off the record.

                At the NAPP Annual Meeting in 2014, we had a representative of the USPTO OPLA (I think) talking about some initiatives, including capturing more of the interview process. Attendees (mostly practitioners, but a few examiners) raised a dozen concerns, and the tone of his response is: “Yeah, guys, I understand your concerns. But other people in the administration have these other interests about the public record, and… well, we’re kind of stuck in the middle.”

                There’s a very interesting difference in tone between PTO administrators who have been in the trenches (either as examiners or as practitioners), and PTO administrators who came from academia or some other bureaucracy. The latter have lofty goals about protecting the public interest and the economy and patent reform, etc., etc. … the former are mainly focused on getting the system to work smoothly, efficiently, and fairly.

                1. The “tone” of those here on this board that do not want to acknowledge reality…

                  Which group do you place them in?

    3. 7.3

      “make both the examiner and applicant state their intended meaning on the record.”

      If the applicant is having to clarify what they mean the 9/10 that means they needed to be more specific in the claim brosef.

    4. 7.4

      “TC 3600 is wielding Alice like a scythe to clear-cut their dockets down to nothing”

      Nice. Saw that coming 10 years ago.

    5. 7.5

      Solving 112 issues are relatively easy.

      1) For 112 6th/112-f require applicant to opt in at the time of filing if they desire claims to be read according to 112 6th/f. Don’t merely presume that they desire it. This fixes some potential 101 issues.

      2) For other 112 issues, require applicant to map their claims to the spec at time of original filing and for each amendment. This is already done at the appeal stage for independent claims. This would also prevent overly broad reads of the claim based on the specification.

  12. 6

    Lee: Based on the information we learn from this pilot, we plan to develop best examiner and applicant practices for enhancing the clarity of the record.

    Because the Patent Office was created yesterday and there is no precedent in human civilization for improving the clarity of descriptive text.

    Just require applicants to meaningfully define their claim terms and/or refer to a standard set of definitions maintained by the PTO and/or adhere to a very specific set of rules setting forth exactly how particular subject matter must be claimed. Then put those definitions immediately above the claims or in an appendix associated with every application.

    It works. It’s been done. Nobody died and very few tears were cried.

    What other possible “practices” could Lee possibly have in mind?

    Note that by “meaningful definitions” I’m referring to definitions that define the bounds of the term, not definitions that declare only that the term is “not limited to [insert ordinary definition]” or that “one skilled in the art would understand the meaning from the context of applicants specification”.

    1. 6.1

      What we need is stability and predictability so that innovators can know whether they have a chance to get a patent or not (which almost always is a key determiner of whether they can actually develop their technology or not). All these new initiatives, new rules, and new rulings are thwarting development of innovation and are bad for innovation. Our foreign associates think we are crazy for undermining our patent system.

      1. 6.1.1

        Raven: All these new initiatives, new rules, and new rulings are thwarting development of innovation

        Exactly what “innovation” is being “thwarted”? Care to share your evidence? I’ve not seen any indication that anybone is being prevented from innovating anything by these “new initiatives, rules or rulings”.

        Our foreign associates think we are crazy for undermining our patent system

        There isn’t any “undermining” of the system going on now here so perhaps it’s the foreign associates who are crazy. The “undermining” took place about fifteen or twenty years back and now we’re just coming to terms with the disaster that was (predictably) created. Yes, fixing it will be painful for some.

        What we need is stability and predictability

        There’s a simple and straightforward way to provide a lot of that and return the US patent system to something far more sane that the system we have now. Ask me about it sometime.

        1. 6.1.1.1

          There isn’t any “undermining” of the system going on now

          WOW – talk about someone in denial, with their head in the ground, back in the farthest reaches of a cave, or any other description that Malcolm may likely whip out and accuse others of….

          It is beyond doubt that there are those on multiple fronts, for multiple reasons (think Left and Right), that are actively attempting to undermine the patent system.

          There simply is NO credibility to clenching tight your eyes and mumbling “I don’t see it

        2. 6.1.1.2

          My ‘data’ on innovation being thwarted is anecdotal (sorry I do not have the time or staff to do a systematic study). Just: EVERY diagnostic claim and EVERY natural product claim is being rejected by the PTO, often with little analysis to support the rejections, and most of these inventions are good ones; clients are not filing as many applications and express discouragement. When I give talks to law firms in London, they express anxiety and tell me that their clients are having second thoughts about filing in the U.S. Maybe this is the “pain” that some will have to experience while we “fix” things. But it looks like the wholesale destruction of some technology sectors to me.

    2. 6.2

      This could actually help applicants if implemented in a reasonable way, since it would remove some of the “broadest reasonable interpretation nonsense raised by examiners, and could increase validity of the claimed invention.

  13. 5

    Looks like we will be getting another “reject, reject, reject” era in the Patent Office but this time on 112 grounds

    1. 5.1

      It was a long time coming. Many many many examiners didn’t know 112 1st or 2nd from their ar se years ago and there are still many having that issue.

      1. 5.1.1

        You appear to not understand the post from Fish Sticks that you are responding to, 6.

        Reject Reject Reject does Not Not Not work.

          1. 5.1.1.1.1

            Thanks “Bob.”

            Playing the copycat game again…?
            You seem to have trouble learning that lesson…

            As it is, my post is clearly in line with the sub-thread of comment string 5, while both 6 and you are, well, not.

            Yet another “gee-let’s-try-to-be-smarmy-to-anon-and F A I L” post.

            1. 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Why did you start the smarminess then anon?

              Look bro, there’s a lot of 112’s that went unmade because examiners literally didn’t know to make them or just didn’t enforce them for lack of trying. There are still many others that are made that should not have been made.

              All I’m saying is that the number that went unmade was larger than those that were erroneously made but a vast quantity and now there should be many more 112’s. Especially 112 2nds since the fall of the insoluably ambiguous standard.

              It isn’t “reject reject reject” so much as it is the actual law finally being applied.

              1. 5.1.1.1.1.1.1

                I did NOT start the smarminess 6 – you did.

                And yes, your post does in fact sound in Reject Reject Reject – and that was the post that you responded to.

                I wasn’t the one that started this little sub-thread you know.

    2. 5.2

      That is EXACTLY what the latest training slides are pushing examiners toward (see the examiner training materials on the USPTO website, especially the 112 written description training).

  14. 4

    Ken, one can only claim what he discloses and equivalents. He cannot claim all equivalents.

    BTW, removing 111(f) would restore the law that old elements can be claimed functionally. Now that is what I think you really want.

    1. 4.1

      “Ken, one can only claim what he discloses and equivalents. He cannot claim all equivalents.”

      Which is why disclosures and claims are broad. Broad disclosures are viewed as “unclear” by copy cats because they don’t like that the broad disclosure and claims cannot be easily worked around. Therefore they whine than they don’t understand the disclosure when what is really going on is that they understand it just fine, they just don’t like what it says.

      1. 4.1.1

        Les, combination claims have numbers of elements. There is no vice in claiming the old elements functionally. There is a vice in claiming the invention in terms of a result and this includes functionally claiming a machine or specifying a result in any method or steps that achieve that result.

        This has been the law in the United States since Le Roy v. Tatham, 55 U.S. 156, 14 L. Ed. 367 (1852):

        “A patent is not good for an effect, or the result of a certain process, as that would prohibit all other persons from making the same thing by any means whatsoever. This, by creating monopolies, would discourage arts and manufactures, against the avowed policy of the patent laws.”

        Id. at 175.

        1. 4.1.1.1

          Ned,

          Please stop peddling your C R P.

          We both know that Congress wrote something different in 1952.

  15. 3

    “First, we are preparing to launch a Clarity of the Record Pilot, under which examiners will include as part of the prosecution record definitions of key terms, important claim constructions, and more detailed reasons for the allowance and rejection of claims.”

    This should prove entertaining.

    1. 3.1

      Indeed. I can’t wait for an Examiner to have to put into the record a claim construction or term definition that is contrary to what’s in the Applicant’s specification in order to maintain a rejection. Business as usual right now because they aren’t forced to explain their positions on the record. The rejections are written vaguely and real interpretations aren’t disclosed unless an interview is conducted.

    2. 3.2

      RE: “This should prove entertaining.”

      And potentially expensive for the applicants.

      There will likely be consequences for failure to challenge PTO examiner’s claim construction and definition of terms, presumably including an admission of agreement to such construction and definitions.

  16. 2

    Ken: The courts are really more to blame for the lack of clarity in patents. They force us

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    Nobody’s forcing you to do anything, Ken.

    But thanks for the Friday laughs.

    1. 2.1

      I suppose all notions of coercion or the like are ultimately relative, in the sense of whether one would accept the alternative. So you’re literally correct, but to what end I’m not sure.

      1. 2.1.1

        There can be little doubt that Malcolm understand the “gist” of what you were saying, but instead decided to employ his very own “born yesterday” as regards the very real existence of “patent profanity” created by the meddling of the courts.

        But such posts are de rigueur for him – nine years and running.

      2. 2.1.2

        you’re literally correct,

        Thanks.

        To reiterate: you are perfectly free to “explain the invention the way normal engineers communicate”. No court has ever told anyone otherwise.

        I’ve worked with plenty of “normal engineers”. Many of them communicate like “normal people” communicate, which is to say that they don’t communicate particularly well.

        Your job as a patent lawyer is to create a legal document that has potentially profound consequences for your client and — more importantly — for everyone else.

        “Being clear” is pretty much the ground floor for what’s expected of a competent lawyer. When patents aren’t clear it isn’t “the fault of the courts” or “the fault of the PTO” (except to the extent that the PTO failed to reject the patent). It’s a reflection of decisions made (or not) by the drafter that introduce ambiguity into the claims and, therefore, greater expense for everyone involved.

        Of course, for the patentee who has nothing to protect except the patent itself that added expense is just a cost of doing business. And so we reach the point where we receive today’s message from the PTO director. It’s amusing to watch her dancing around the elephant in the room but hardly expected. After all, the “stakeholders” wouldn’t want to see the big issue addressed directly.

        1. 2.1.2.1

          MM,

          In theory patents are supposed to be both legal documents and technical documents, and supposedly they are to teach those “in the art” (and do so directly – not just via “legal translation”).

          My point is that if I write with a top priority of clearly teaching other engineers what I invented, I get punished with weaker protection for not torturing the language. Given your typical positions taken, I would think you’d actually side with me on this one – i.e. wanting the system to incentivize actual meaningful disclosure rather than perpetuate some sort of gamesmanship of who can keep up with what phrasing is in vogue, etc.

          1. 2.1.2.1.1

            I don’t understand your position Ken. You could prepare a genuine informative technical specification for engineers and then draft your original claims as broadly as you desire. If you draft the document well, you’ll both advance the art and give yourself more room to work in during prosecution.

            1. 2.1.2.1.1.1

              My point was that the caselaw is filled with so many instances of “magic words” needing to be used (or avoided, depending on the situation), that it in effect requires us to write an a way that’s not natural – or easy to read for non-lawyers.

            2. 2.1.2.1.1.2

              Not if you use “nonce” words, even if all engineers in that field use those terms.

          2. 2.1.2.1.2

            Ken: if I write with a top priority of clearly teaching other engineers what I invented, I get punished with weaker protection for not torturing the language.

            Well, that’s just false and there’s not much more to add other than to simply state that obvious fact.

            Maybe just stick with your bit about “being forced” to write unclear patents by the courts. That might be a better script. It’s easier to remember at least. And don’t forget to keep harping on the “sanctity” of your awesome patent rights! Otherwise people might not think that you’re super serious and oh-so-concerned with promoting “innovation.”

            I would think you’d actually side with me on this one – i.e. wanting the system to incentivize actual meaningful disclosure rather than perpetuate some sort of gamesmanship

            I’m all for that.

            who can keep up with what phrasing is in vogue

            Maybe rather than trying to keep up “vogue phrasing” and “magic words” applicants can simply (1) learn to write clearly and (2) get a grasp on the subject matter eligibility problems and functional claiming at the point of novelty issues that are not going away anytime soon for anybody wishing to protect “new logic”.

            The Federal Circuit never “forced” anybody to use any terms in any claim without defining that term.

            patents are supposed to be both legal documents and technical documents, and supposedly they are to teach those “in the art”

            Right. So include a section with the technical part that your engineers will understand and then address the legal issues in a separate section. If you need to clarify anything in the “engineer ready” section to avoid a mis-statement of fact or correct an ambiguity (e.g., a statement that could be construed as a limiting admission) then do it. It shouldn’t be too hard. I can assure that engineers in certain art units have been doing that for a long time without habitually stepping in it like the computer-implementers do. But then again the computer implementers are playing an altogether different game in most cases, aren’t they? Of course they are.

            1. 2.1.2.1.2.1

              The idea of separate sections for engineers and lawyers is kind of intriguing, but I think the problem is that courts would still probably apply their “magic words” and “patent profanity” rules to both sections.

              Say I’m wrong all you want, but whenever I show an engineer the sorts of phrasings that have been deemed limiting admissions or some such, they’re in shock because that’s simply not how normal people interpret such phrasing.

              FWIW – I’m not in the software realm.

              1. 2.1.2.1.2.1.1

                The idea of separate sections for engineers and lawyers is kind of intriguing

                It’s also old and the grown-ups have been practicing that way for a long time.

                “patent profanity” rules

                I believe you’re referring to “language that could be or is likely to be construed as limiting.” What you seem to have difficulty understanding or admitting is that limiting language helps the applicant/patentee far, far more often than it hurts the applicant/patentee. Again, your perspective may be blurred if you are drafting on behalf of someone who would happily claim the world and everything in it if they thought they could get away with it (and if you have trouble believing that not everyone is so inclined, I suggest you make a get out of the office a bit more).

                whenever I show an engineer the sorts of phrasings that have been deemed limiting admissions or some such, they’re in shock because that’s simply not how normal people interpret such phrasing.

                Maybe try not to be so selective about what phrasings you show the engineers. Just this week a grown up stood up in Federal Court and argued that an “apparatus” included software transmitted over the Internet. Did you tell your engineer friends about that?

                1. Malcolm says “grown-up” as he himself childishly ig nores the difference between “is” and “equivalence.”

                  Go figure “folks.”

              2. 2.1.2.1.2.1.2

                “Say I’m wrong all you want, but whenever I show an engineer the sorts of phrasings that have been deemed limiting admissions or some such, they’re in shock because that’s simply not how normal people interpret such phrasing.”

                I do agree with this somewhat, but bad decisions happen. They’re not etched in stone for all time. You rely on the wisdom of the judges you’re before on a given day to seek justice.

                1. Your naivete is rather stunning 6.

                  You are aware of course, that such “gee-hope-that-patent-profanity-will-magically-disappear” is stunningly p00r advice for the real world, right?

                2. Alexander, my dear examiner friend – you clearly have not been paying attention and that lemming march you engage in will only lead you to one destination.

                  There is no hypocrisy from me. You may not like what I have to say – but what I have to say is accurate.

  17. 1

    The courts are really more to blame for the lack of clarity in patents than the PTO is. They force us to write patents that use/avoid all the right “magic words” – and then we have to write other sorts of publications in order to actually explain the invention the way normal engineers communicate. (It would be nice if the patent could do that, but ironically they won’t let us do it that way.)

    For example, no engineer (who doesn’t also happen to be a lawyer) would understand the game of “gotchya” that the Federal Circuit plays by saying that a seemingly innocuous phrase like “my invention does X” is somehow an admission that the invention does absolutely nothing other than X. And, what normal “person in the art” would ever think that you need to keep saying “for example” incessantly in every context or it will be deemed an admission of exhaustiveness? Yet those are just a couple examples of the sort of game that judges play with our patent system, and it leads to patents that are utterly unintelligible to non-lawyers.

    Heh – someday these judges may start demanding specifications that are “actually” clear, thereby punishing us for having jumped through their hoops in the first place.

      1. 1.1.1

        “Based on the information we learn from this pilot, we plan to develop best examiner and applicant practices for enhancing the clarity of the record”

        Meaning, we will train Examiners to “clarify” the record by making extraneous limiting commentary to create as much estoppel as possible “on the record.” Just another initiative sponsored by anti-patent thieves so they can inflict damage on applications “in utero” to speak with the assistance of your government tax dollars. No need to worry about “issued” patents anymore as they are already born sterile.

        1. 1.1.1.1

          It’s also going to increase the hours spent during prosecution so that no assertion goes uncontested or agreed upon by implications of silence. The only ones who win here are patent counsel, and that’s not a good thing.

          1. 1.1.1.1.1

            The only ones who win here are patent counsel, and that’s not a good thing.

            Don’t forget to pay attention to your attorney when he/she tells you to “appeal! appeal! appeal” every procedural issue regardless of how rotten the claims are. That’s super beneficial to everybody.

            another initiative sponsored by anti-patent thieves

            They’re just jealous of you guys and your how super smart you are.

            1. 1.1.1.1.1.1

              What does the appeal process have to do with anything said by me or anyone else today? You do have fun burning that straw.

              Also, why are you quoting that second line, as if I said that? That’s just downright disingenuous behavior.

        2. 1.1.1.2

          JNG No need to worry about “issued” patents anymore as they are already born sterile.

          That’s certainly true of pretty much all your issued patents, with or without this initiative.

          But the rest of us aren’t so worried about this PTO “initiative”. On the contrary: it’s welcomed. Let’s see if they manage to implement it without someone raising some “Consitutional challenge.”

          1. 1.1.1.2.1

            LOL

            How sad it must be to be you Moonman, let’s count the ways:

            1) never wrote an application that amounted to anything
            2) never appeared in a case that meant anything
            3) relegated to trolling anonymity on a message board because your professional experience would fit in a thimble

            keep us all posted on the day when anything you say amounts to a hill of beans, will ya?

          2. 1.1.1.2.2

            For this Malcolm, the Constitutional challenge may not even be needed.

            Of course, that’s because Tafas still controls.

            You do know about the Tafas case, right?

    1. 1.2

      Ken, it is not so must a problem of the specification, it is a problem of the functional claim. Courts latch on to anything they can to limit the scope of the functional claim to what they perceive to be the invention.

      Thus, the remedy for all this is to have a very clear rule that functionally claiming the invention is illegal — against the statute. The problem of 112(f) is that it expressly authorizes functionally claiming the invention instead of forbidding it. The policy lever there is backwards.

      We need to repeal 112(f). That way, there would be no question that a claim “functional” at the exact point of novelty would be invalid.

      1. 1.2.1

        Ned,

        I know you really don’t like “functional claiming at the point of novelty,” but how can you maintain such a distinction in our system of “peripheral-claiming” (where there isn’t supposed to be any such thing as a “gist” or essence of an invention)?

        Wouldn’t you basically need to argue for switching to a more “central-claiming” type of system, in order to recognize such a notion as a point-of-novelty?

        1. 1.2.1.1

          Ken: in our system … there isn’t supposed to be any such thing as a “gist” or essence of an invention

          Wow, you’ve been drinking a lot of kool-aid. “Gist” and “essence” are words used to describe things. As concepts, they’re not banned from our patent system or any other patent system.

        2. 1.2.1.2

          Ken: Wouldn’t you basically need to argue for switching to a more “central-claiming” type of system, in order to recognize such a notion as a point-of-novelty?

          Of course not. Then again, it’s unclear what you are referring to when you use the term “such a notion.”

          Here’s a claim:

          A machine, wherein said machine can fly upside down at 2000 miles per hour continuously for at least three hours without burning fuel.

          Here’s what’s old: machine

          Here’s the point of novelty: “can fly upside down at 2000 miles per hour continuously for at least three hours without burning fuel.”

          That novelty is functional. The claim is therefore functional at the point of novelty.

          This isn’t rocket science, although it might appear that way if you have zero understanding of patent claims and their role in our legal system.

          1. 1.2.1.2.1

            “There is no legally cognizable “gist” or “heart” of the invention in a combination patent. Vas-Cath Inc. v. Mahurkar, 935 F.2d 1555, 1565, 19 USPQ2d 1111, 1118 (Fed. Cir. 1991).”

            Ex parte JE-CHANG et al.

            So maybe I overstated, but my point has some merit – and hyperbolic invective like “zero understanding” does nothing to promote civil discourse.

            (Gee wiz guys…I care about patents as much as the next guy, but you’d think we’re arguing about abortion and religion the way people get so personal around here.)

            1. 1.2.1.2.1.1

              Ken, give it up with respect to MM. You can’t “win” an argument against him, because he cares not what you say. He has one point, which is there should be no patents for anything on a computer. And maybe another, which is that everything is “old” and therefore not suitable for patents. And since he doesn’t seem to have a “real job”, he will overwhelm you. He’ll post 10 times for every time you post.

            2. 1.2.1.2.1.2

              maybe I overstated

              Maybe? You definitely overstated. And I corrected you. And it’s not “personal” at all because the sort of overstatement you just engaged in is an example of strawman beating that is a ritual for people who are rely heavily on functional claiming and want to squelch any discussion of the issues associated with it.

              So there’s no confusion: Functional claiming is a huge problem in our patent system and it’s going to be addressed.

              We can debate when occurs and we can debate the solutions but there really isn’t any question that (1) it’s a huge problem, at least in the “logic arts” which is a large part of the system right now; and (2) it’s a problem that is being addressed and it’s going to continue to be addressed.

              While addressing the problem, people are invariably going to refer to the “heart” of the invention, the “essence” of the invention and the “gist” of the invention, as well as the “point of novelty” of the invention. Just get used to it. It doesn’t matter what some CAFC opinion said in some other specific context.

              you’d think we’re arguing about abortion and religion the way people get so personal

              99% of the worst examples come from the same people who fight tooth and nail against pretty much every decision and every statutory change which weakens their precious patent rights (or the precious patent rights of their bestest buddies). That’s where “PTAB is a death squad” came from. That’s where “PTO is like the gestapo” came from. That’s where “patent reformers are like terr 0rists” came from. That’s where “US is returning to the iron age” came from.

              What the debate is about is: who gets to decide what the patent system looks like? There were some really funny comments a while back from a commenter who favored (surprise!) more patent rights that “patents were becoming politicized.” What he/she really meant was that “determinations about how the patent system works and who should benefit from it is beginning to include considerations other than the mere wishes of the rights holders.” The reason these discussions drive those rights holders over the cliff is that a lot of those people got so used to controlling the discussion they simply can’t wrap their heads around the fact that it really isn’t all about them and their oh-so-sooper-dooper important “patent rights.” Those days are over. A lot of the grifters who made a boatload abusing the system and grifting off the “do it on a computer” and “do it on the Internet” trend (or who hoped to do that) can see the writing on the wall. It’s very “personal” to them.

              1. 1.2.1.2.1.2.1

                Huge problem?

                Going to be addressed?

                You do realize that the proper means for addressing this statutory law is through Congress, right?

        3. 1.2.1.3

          Functional claiming at the point of novelty is a problem (unless you invoke 112f and construe it properly). Although MM exaggerates a bit, the novelty of “flying upside down at 2000 miles per hour continuously for at least three hours without burning fuel” is a problem, not a solution. If you claim it as a “means for flying upside down at 2000 miles per hour continuously for at least three hours without burning fuel” you only get what is described in the specification, which IMO fine. The reality, however, is most the functional at the point of novelty claims are not being limited to the spec, which means you can write a claim to “a solar panel having greater than 30% efficiency” and if no one has done that, no one can make better solar panels without infringing your patent, even if they use a totally different means.

          1. 1.2.1.3.1

            Alex, even if scope is limited to some particular structure, there is a problem in that the claim itself does not tell you what the invention is and has an apparent very broad scope: any means or method that can achieve the claimed function or result would be covered. This necessarily fails the requirement the claims themselves particular point out the invention because the invention is in the corresponding means or method, not in the claim.

            This is why Halliburton was decided the way it was – the vast apparent scope of the claim was the problem. It apparently covered any means or process that could achieve the claimed result. This alone warded off competition even if a narrow construction was given the claim in court.

            That is why the court held that such claims violated the then analog of § 112(b).

            1. 1.2.1.3.1.1

              All true, but I do see a place for functional claiming when various embodiments are discussed in a specification. It just requires proper interpretation by courts and examiners.

              I certainly don’t think its a problem if someone claims “means for fastening” and the spec discloses glue, tape, and 20 other things instead of 22 separate claims, or a Markush group.

              1. 1.2.1.3.1.1.1

                Alex,

                Please understand that the use of terms sounding in function are allowed by the actions of Congress in the Act of 1952 in more than just the optional manner under 112(f).

              2. 1.2.1.3.1.1.2

                Alex, absolutely. Functional claims is perfect for claiming old and well known elements that may or may not be structural equivalents.

                Alex, but I see in your post is the same mistake that the Federal Circuit is making in its administration of §112(f). They don’t make any distinction between whether the claim element is claiming old and well known elements or whether it is claiming novel elements.

            2. 1.2.1.3.1.2

              WRONG Ned – expressly so, since you do know that Halliburton was abrogated by the Act of 1952 – we have had this discussion before, and I even used your favorite commentator Federico.

              Please stop your nonsense.

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