The Pope on Patents

Bits and Bytes, Patent

In a recently published encyclical letter, Pope Benedict XVI has taken a stand against strong patent rights because of they way that the exclusive rights of patents tend to promote wealth inequality at the expense of development in the world’s poorest countries.  

“On the part of rich countries there is excessive zeal for protecting knowledge through an unduly rigid assertion of the right to intellectual property, especially in the field of health care.”

The intellectual property statements only make up a few lines in the 144-page letter. However, they fit with the overall theme – that relying solely on monetary greed as an incentive does not lead to the right kind of development and actually creates instability.

The letter does not edify official Church doctrine, but it is used by Church leaders around the world in setting priorities.

In response, the IPO released a statement that it is “working to educate on the incentives that IP rights provide for advancing knowledge and creating jobs.”

  • See “Encyclical Letter Caritas In Veritate Of The Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI To The Bishops Priests And Deacons Men And Women Religious The Lay Faithful And All People Of Good Will On Integral Human Development In Charity And Truth,” June 29, 2009. [Link][Related Post]

Bits and Bytes No 120: In the News

Bits and Bytes, Patent, ,
  • PTO Funding Emergency: Andrew Noyes reports on an emergency funding bill for the PTO that would allow the agency to use surplus funds from its trademark budget to fund the growing shortfall on the patent side. Link. The current trademark budget surplus is estimated at $60 million. [Diane Bartz’s Reuters article on the same topic]
  • John Duffy: Michael Orey of BusinessWeek has published an article recognizing the ongoing contributions of Professor Duffy: A Scholar-Activist Challenges U.S. Patent Law.
  • Todd Dickinson: Joff Wild of IAM recently interviewed former PTO Director Todd Dickinson and posted the 9 minute video on YouTube. [Watch the Video][IAM Blog]. Dickinson walks through the three major priorities for the next director: Priority I: Reestablish the stakeholder relationship with the PTO; Priority II: Pendency & backlog (in the shadow of the financial shortfall); Priority III: Quality.
  • False Marking: PUBPAT continues its campaign against false marking. Earlier, I reported on its false marking lawsuits against Cumberland (Sweet’N Low) and Iovate (Xenadrine). Last week, the nonprofit filed a false marking suit against McNeil (Tylenol) and filed an amici brief in Pequignot v. Solo Cup. In that brief, PUBPAT argues that damages should be based on “each falsely marked article.” The brief also spells out some of the harms of falsely marked products:

    “The reason why companies mark and advertise their products as patented is because they expect doing so will provide them some benefit in the marketplace, such as by winning over consumers, building a superior brand associated with innovativeness, implying that their product has been reviewed and approved by the federal government, or implicitly threatening actual or potential competitors with allegations of patent infringement. Thus, when products are falsely marked or advertised as “patented” or with the numbers of expired, invalid, or inapplicable patents, such false marking provides these potential benefits to the false marker/advertiser without any commensurate justification and, as such, creates the potential to negatively impact the marketplace, the public interests, and the integrity of the patent system.”

  • File Attachment: SoloAmiciBrief.pdf (1100 KB)
  • File Attachment: PUBPAT v McNeil – Complaint.pdf (321 KB)

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 119

Bits and Bytes, Patent, ,
  • The AP on Hugo Chavez: Venezuelan officials plan to invalidate some pharmaceutical patents and allow domestic manufacturers to produce licensed medicines, an action that could cause shortages and scare off foreign investment, industry leaders said Sunday. [AP][via PatentHawk]
  • BPAI Data: An updated version of yesterday’s paper on BPAI decision data is available online here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1423922. Comments are welcome.
  • New Blog: Rocket Docket IP Litigation (E.D. Va. Patent Focus). The blog is edited by the folks at Williams Mullen. Their latest post is an update on the false marking litigation against Solo Cup.
  • National Patent Jury Instructions: A comittee assembled by Chief Judge Michel has released its set of model jury instructions. Although Judge Michel assembled the committee, the introduction makes clear that the instructions “have not been endorsed by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, and are not “official” jury instructions.” However, the instructions are likely to serve as the ongoing model. http://www.nationaljuryinstructions.org/.

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 119

Bits and Bytes, Patent, ,
  • The AP on Hugo Chavez: Venezuelan officials plan to invalidate some pharmaceutical patents and allow domestic manufacturers to produce licensed medicines, an action that could cause shortages and scare off foreign investment, industry leaders said Sunday. [AP][via PatentHawk]
  • BPAI Data: An updated version of yesterday’s paper on BPAI decision data is available online here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1423922. Comments are welcome.
  • New Blog: Rocket Docket IP Litigation (E.D. Va. Patent Focus). The blog is edited by the folks at Williams Mullen. Their latest post is an update on the false marking litigation against Solo Cup.
  • National Patent Jury Instructions: A comittee assembled by Chief Judge Michel has released its set of model jury instructions. Although Judge Michel assembled the committee, the introduction makes clear that the instructions “have not been endorsed by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, and are not “official” jury instructions.” However, the instructions are likely to serve as the ongoing model. http://www.nationaljuryinstructions.org/.

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 119

Bits and Bytes, ,
  • The AP on Hugo Chavez: Venezuelan officials plan to invalidate some pharmaceutical patents and allow domestic manufacturers to produce licensed medicines, an action that could cause shortages and scare off foreign investment, industry leaders said Sunday. [AP][via PatentHawk]
  • BPAI Data: An updated version of yesterday’s paper on BPAI decision data is available online here: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1423922. Comments are welcome.
  • New Blog: Rocket Docket IP Litigation (E.D. Va. Patent Focus). The blog is edited by the folks at Williams Mullen. Their latest post is an update on the false marking litigation against Solo Cup.
  • National Patent Jury Instructions: A comittee assembled by Chief Judge Michel has released its set of model jury instructions. Although Judge Michel assembled the committee, the introduction makes clear that the instructions “have not been endorsed by the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, and are not “official” jury instructions.” However, the instructions are likely to serve as the ongoing model. http://www.nationaljuryinstructions.org/.

Bits and Bytes No. 118: Kappos & Dudas

Bits and Bytes, Patent,

From Hal Wegner:

A few weeks ago Dave Kappos was involved in a webinar with Jon Dudas which provides some perspectives on the new Director’s views. It is available at http://www.foley.com/news/event_detail.aspx?eventid=2779. The webinar itself is available at http://www.foley.com/multimedia/multimedia_detail.aspx?multimediaid=58221724.

The May 8, 2009 webinar focuses on patent reform; technology issues; and reexamination.

A final version of the new Patent Case Management Judicial Guide is in print. It is also freely available on SSRN.

Bits and Bytes No. 117: Data, Damages & Deferred Examination

Bits and Bytes, Patent,
  • Data.Gov: As part of the transparent government project, we now have the website Data.Gov with the purpose of “increas[ing]public access to high value, machine readable datasets generated by the Executive Branch of the Federal Government.” So far, the PTO has only included two datasets -both of which were already available through the PTO website. Hopefully there will be more to come – including opening access to PAIR. [More here].
  • IP Colloquium: Professor Lichtman has released a new edition of his audio-program IP Colloquium. This month’s program focuses on reforms of the patent damages laws. [LINK] The program offers CLE Credit.
  • Deferred Examination: Comments on a potential deferred examination program are here.
  • Deferred Examination: Intel’s comments are interesting. The company argues that the success of deferred examination in other countries is a facade. Rather, the high rate of drop-out during prosecution in countries such as Japan, Germany, and Korea is due to the inventor compensation schemes in those countries. So the story goes – companies in those countries tend to file more low-quality local patent applications for the purpose preempting inventors from asserting rights on their own.

“We actually believe that the reason that deferred examination has had little success in the United States is due to the inventor compensation schemes that exist in many countries such as Japan, Germany and Korea.

In essence, under the regimes in these countries, if the company fails to patent the invention, the inventor has the right to file on his or her own behalf. Having inventors file on their own behalf is generally viewed as undesirable. As a result, the companies file disproportionately more applications in their home jurisdictions than normal prudence would otherwise suggest. Since they are filing these in part to pre-empt the inventor’s rights and to avoid having additional inventor compensation issues, we believe that this contributes to an inclination to avoid paying the examination fee and then to abandon the patent application.   

However, outside their home jurisdictions, these companies have a tendency to file a fraction of the patents that they file in their home jurisdictions. Having filed in the home jurisdiction, they have little or no concern that the inventor has the right or will file the application overseas. Apparently, as a result, they do not appear to abandon nearly as high a percentage of the patent applications that they file outside their home jurisdictions as they file in their home jurisdictions.

Of course, the US does not have such inventor compensation statutes. Those foreign companies that file and abandon so heavily in their home jurisdictions exhibit radically different behavior in the US. They file less and abandon much less. Hence, we believe that this helps explain the disparate experience of deferred examination in other countries. It means that the practice in these other countries is not likely to be a good indicator for practice before the USPTO.”

Bits and Bytes No. 117: Data, Damages & Deferred Examination

Bits and Bytes, Patent,
  • Data.Gov: As part of the transparent government project, we now have the website Data.Gov with the purpose of “increas[ing]public access to high value, machine readable datasets generated by the Executive Branch of the Federal Government.” So far, the PTO has only included two datasets -both of which were already available through the PTO website. Hopefully there will be more to come – including opening access to PAIR. [More here].
  • IP Colloquium: Professor Lichtman has released a new edition of his audio-program IP Colloquium. This month’s program focuses on reforms of the patent damages laws. [LINK] The program offers CLE Credit.
  • Deferred Examination: Comments on a potential deferred examination program are here.
  • Deferred Examination: Intel’s comments are interesting. The company argues that the success of deferred examination in other countries is a facade. Rather, the high rate of drop-out during prosecution in countries such as Japan, Germany, and Korea is due to the inventor compensation schemes in those countries. So the story goes – companies in those countries tend to file more low-quality local patent applications for the purpose preempting inventors from asserting rights on their own.

“We actually believe that the reason that deferred examination has had little success in the United States is due to the inventor compensation schemes that exist in many countries such as Japan, Germany and Korea.

In essence, under the regimes in these countries, if the company fails to patent the invention, the inventor has the right to file on his or her own behalf. Having inventors file on their own behalf is generally viewed as undesirable. As a result, the companies file disproportionately more applications in their home jurisdictions than normal prudence would otherwise suggest. Since they are filing these in part to pre-empt the inventor’s rights and to avoid having additional inventor compensation issues, we believe that this contributes to an inclination to avoid paying the examination fee and then to abandon the patent application.   

However, outside their home jurisdictions, these companies have a tendency to file a fraction of the patents that they file in their home jurisdictions. Having filed in the home jurisdiction, they have little or no concern that the inventor has the right or will file the application overseas. Apparently, as a result, they do not appear to abandon nearly as high a percentage of the patent applications that they file outside their home jurisdictions as they file in their home jurisdictions.

Of course, the US does not have such inventor compensation statutes. Those foreign companies that file and abandon so heavily in their home jurisdictions exhibit radically different behavior in the US. They file less and abandon much less. Hence, we believe that this helps explain the disparate experience of deferred examination in other countries. It means that the practice in these other countries is not likely to be a good indicator for practice before the USPTO.”

Bits and Bytes No. 117: Data, Damages & Deferred Examination

Bits and Bytes,
  • Data.Gov: As part of the transparent government project, we now have the website Data.Gov with the purpose of “increas[ing]public access to high value, machine readable datasets generated by the Executive Branch of the Federal Government.” So far, the PTO has only included two datasets -both of which were already available through the PTO website. Hopefully there will be more to come – including opening access to PAIR. [More here].
  • IP Colloquium: Professor Lichtman has released a new edition of his audio-program IP Colloquium. This month’s program focuses on reforms of the patent damages laws. [LINK] The program offers CLE Credit.
  • Deferred Examination: Comments on a potential deferred examination program are here.
  • Deferred Examination: Intel’s comments are interesting. The company argues that the success of deferred examination in other countries is a facade. Rather, the high rate of drop-out during prosecution in countries such as Japan, Germany, and Korea is due to the inventor compensation schemes in those countries. So the story goes – companies in those countries tend to file more low-quality local patent applications for the purpose preempting inventors from asserting rights on their own.

“We actually believe that the reason that deferred examination has had little success in the United States is due to the inventor compensation schemes that exist in many countries such as Japan, Germany and Korea.

In essence, under the regimes in these countries, if the company fails to patent the invention, the inventor has the right to file on his or her own behalf. Having inventors file on their own behalf is generally viewed as undesirable. As a result, the companies file disproportionately more applications in their home jurisdictions than normal prudence would otherwise suggest. Since they are filing these in part to pre-empt the inventor’s rights and to avoid having additional inventor compensation issues, we believe that this contributes to an inclination to avoid paying the examination fee and then to abandon the patent application.   

However, outside their home jurisdictions, these companies have a tendency to file a fraction of the patents that they file in their home jurisdictions. Having filed in the home jurisdiction, they have little or no concern that the inventor has the right or will file the application overseas. Apparently, as a result, they do not appear to abandon nearly as high a percentage of the patent applications that they file outside their home jurisdictions as they file in their home jurisdictions.

Of course, the US does not have such inventor compensation statutes. Those foreign companies that file and abandon so heavily in their home jurisdictions exhibit radically different behavior in the US. They file less and abandon much less. Hence, we believe that this helps explain the disparate experience of deferred examination in other countries. It means that the practice in these other countries is not likely to be a good indicator for practice before the USPTO.”

Bits and Bytes No. 116

Bits and Bytes, Damages, Design Patent, License, USPTO News
  • Comments on Patently-O: I have updated the commenting software. Now there are threaded comments, so it is easier to reply directly to a prior comment. If you sign-up for a free Typepad account then you can personalize the image associated with your moniker.
  • Law Firms as Patent Owners: Photo site SmugMug recently filed a declaratory judgment action against the patent holding entity VPS, LLC. VPS previously settled with Pictage earning a “multi-million dollar fee” as well as with Kodak Gallery and Shutterfly. VPS’s ownership is interesting. Its managing partners are all patent attorneys: Carl Moore (patent attorney at Marshall Gerstein); Timothy Vezeau (patent attorney at Katten Muchin); and Nate Sarpelli. The VPS patents were originally assigned to Monet, Inc. but subsequently assigned to the Marshall Gerstein firm. In 2002, the law firm assigned the rights to VPS. (See Pat. No. 6,321,231). SmugMug Complaint for Declaratory Judgment.pdf
  • Design Patent Customs Registration: The IPO has voted to support a statutory change that would create a design patent registry within the Customs and Border Protection (CBP) bureau of the Department of Homeland Security. The CBP already keeps a registry of trademarks and copyrights to assist customs agents in preventing infringing importation through any of the 317 official ports of entry into the US. [CBP E-Recordation System] (No bill has been proposed.)
  • Tivo v. DISH and EchoStar: $190 million.
  • Update Your PTO Registration Data Online: Link. Before you can use the system, the OED will first send a letter to you with a User ID. After you respond, you will be sent a password.

Bits and Bytes No. 113: PTO Director

Bits and Bytes, USPTO News, ,
  • Nothing to report on the quest for a new PTO director. Although the Obama administration’s “fast start” has been reported by the media, he is now slower than President Clinton who nominated Bruce Lehman in April of his first year in office. President Bush nominated Jim Rogan in May of his first year in office. President Obama has two more days to match that benchmark. (My prediction of a May 8 nomination has come and gone…)
  • Albritton v. Cisco: The Patent Troll Tracker case continues. Trial in the defamation case is set for September 14 in Tyler Texas. Defendants include Cisco, Richard Frenkel (the Patent Troll Tracker) Mallun Yen, and John Noh.
  • Ward v. Cisco: Johnny Ward Jr. (son of Judge Ward) has a parallel case running against Cisco in Texarkana (Arkansas). Ward voluntarily dismissed Frenkel from the lawsuit after Cisco “admitted agency.” Discovery is ongoing and the parties have asked for trial to begin December 30, 2009.
  • Speaking of EDTX: Last week, the Canadian company i4i won a $200 million verdict for willful patent infringement against Microsoft. Apparently i4i’s xml editing software was completely undercut when Microsoft included xml editing software in MSWord. The patent is here. Joe Mullin has more.
  • Voting continues for the “best patent blog.” (I don’t like this survey, but it is still nice to make a good showing.)
  • Singulair Patent Reexamination: Earlier this year, ArticleOne asked for prior art on Merck’s Singlair patent and two of its “community members” offered seemingly important references. ArticleOne then filed for reexamination of the patent, which was granted on May 20. Today ArticleOne issued press releases related to the reexamination. Peter Ludwig (Darby & Darby) is representing ArticleOne before the PTO. Singulair garnered $4 billion+ in sales last year.
  • Information Query: The Singulair patent’s reexamination number is 90/009,432. If you were an investor, how would you go about closely following the prosecution history in that case?
  • Patent Jobs:

Zuhn: A Model Patent Office for the Future

Bits and Bytes, Patent, Patent Legislation

Dr. Zuhn has been covering patent happenings at the BIO Conference. His article discussing a panel on suggestions for fixing the USPTO is a great read. The theme presented by Sherry Knowles (from GSK) is one that many Patently-O readers understand – stakeholders cannot count on someone else to address problems at at the PTO.

John Duffy, who participated followed-up with a note about GSK’s role in the case of Tafas v. Dudas.

GSK has been very well served by its attorneys, which includes an excellent team of lawyers from Kirkland & Ellis headed by John M. Desmarais. They’ve been successful in winning 99% of what GSK wanted. The rules still aren’t in effect, and they are unlikely ever to go into effect without substantial revision. Moreover, as for the last 1% percent that GSK attorneys weren’t able to win, I don’t think any attorneys could have won. The administrative law issues in the case were always very difficult for GSK’s position. I don’t think any set of attorneys could have produced a better result, and I don’t doub t that GSK’s lawyers recognize that Supreme Court review would have its risks.

Duffy also discussed the potential risks of a Supreme Court decision in Tafas v. Dudas.

Judge Prost did a masterful job on the administrative law issues in the Tafas case. If the case were appealed to the Supreme Court, I think the Court would largely affirm her opinion. The most difficult issue in the case has always been whether, giving the agency’s rules an appropriate amount of Chevron deference, a court should nonetheless hold Final Rule 78 inconsistent with the clear meaning of section 120 of the Patent Act. Judge Prost ruled against the agency on that issue, and her result seems to me to be one reasonable resolution of a difficult issue. But the issue is a close one, as even Judge Bryson’s concurrence suggests. If Tafas were to be heard by the Supreme Court, it is entirely possible that the Justices (a majority of whom either have taught ad law or have served on the ad law-heavy D.C. Circuit) might give the agency a bit more deference than the Federal Circuit panel did. Thus, if the case went to the Supreme Co urt, I think likely outcomes would be either a complete affirmance or a reversal limited to the one issue that GSK won at the Federal Circuit.

Other News:

  • The White House has again recognized Peer-to-Patent as an example of “approachable government.” http://www.whitehouse.gov/newmedia/. (“Improves the quality of issued patents”).

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 110

Articles and Publications, Bits and Bytes, Patent, , ,
  • Tom Bakos and Mark Nowotarski have posted their own inventions on the Peer-to-Patent site. You can review them and add prior art: Invention 1, a Risk Assessment Company; Invention 2, SoberTeen Driving Insurance
  • I am expecting an announcement of the next PTO director on Friday (May 8). Jim Pooley is being nominated as deputy director of WIPO and is apparently out of the running for the job of PTO director. The two leading candidates thus appear to be Todd Dickinson and David Kappos.
  • If Kappos is nominated, the Peer-to-Patent system (originally funded by IBM) will receive a boost.
  • Speaking of WIPO, the US has proposed “comprehensive” PCT Reform “which would result in the establishment of a new Patent Cooperation Treaty, PCT II. The new treaty would serve to better facilitate workload sharing between the patent offices.
  • I just looked at Prof. Margo Bagley new article on First-to-Invent published in the Berkeley Technology Law Journal. Her conclusions: “The US First-to-Invent system may be unique in the world but it offers significant benefits to small entity entrepreneurs and others.” Bagley sees these benefits as primarily coming through the “robust grace period.” When should FITF be adopted? “Only when such a move will provide a clear advantage for small entities by facilitating the adoption of a one-year grace period outside of the US.” See The Need for Speed (and Grace).
  • Bagley’s short article is well received. My one quibble is that she perpetuates the idea that a desire to end interferences is a major motivation in the debate. She says “Eliminating interferences and the uncertainty associated with them appears to be a prime motivation for the FITF legislation.” Lets be clear, in the US, proponents of the first to file legislation want to make it easier to invalidate patents by creating more prior art.

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 110

Articles and Publications, Bits and Bytes, , ,
  • Tom Bakos and Mark Nowotarski have posted their own inventions on the Peer-to-Patent site. You can review them and add prior art: Invention 1, a Risk Assessment Company; Invention 2, SoberTeen Driving Insurance
  • I am expecting an announcement of the next PTO director on Friday (May 8). Jim Pooley is being nominated as deputy director of WIPO and is apparently out of the running for the job of PTO director. The two leading candidates thus appear to be Todd Dickinson and David Kappos.
  • If Kappos is nominated, the Peer-to-Patent system (originally funded by IBM) will receive a boost.
  • Speaking of WIPO, the US has proposed “comprehensive” PCT Reform “which would result in the establishment of a new Patent Cooperation Treaty, PCT II. The new treaty would serve to better facilitate workload sharing between the patent offices.
  • I just looked at Prof. Margo Bagley new article on First-to-Invent published in the Berkeley Technology Law Journal. Her conclusions: “The US First-to-Invent system may be unique in the world but it offers significant benefits to small entity entrepreneurs and others.” Bagley sees these benefits as primarily coming through the “robust grace period.” When should FITF be adopted? “Only when such a move will provide a clear advantage for small entities by facilitating the adoption of a one-year grace period outside of the US.” See The Need for Speed (and Grace).
  • Bagley’s short article is well received. My one quibble is that she perpetuates the idea that a desire to end interferences is a major motivation in the debate. She says “Eliminating interferences and the uncertainty associated with them appears to be a prime motivation for the FITF legislation.” Lets be clear, in the US, proponents of the first to file legislation want to make it easier to invalidate patents by creating more prior art.

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 110

Articles and Publications, Bits and Bytes, Patent, , ,
  • Tom Bakos and Mark Nowotarski have posted their own inventions on the Peer-to-Patent site. You can review them and add prior art: Invention 1, a Risk Assessment Company; Invention 2, SoberTeen Driving Insurance
  • I am expecting an announcement of the next PTO director on Friday (May 8). Jim Pooley is being nominated as deputy director of WIPO and is apparently out of the running for the job of PTO director. The two leading candidates thus appear to be Todd Dickinson and David Kappos.
  • If Kappos is nominated, the Peer-to-Patent system (originally funded by IBM) will receive a boost.
  • Speaking of WIPO, the US has proposed “comprehensive” PCT Reform “which would result in the establishment of a new Patent Cooperation Treaty, PCT II. The new treaty would serve to better facilitate workload sharing between the patent offices.
  • I just looked at Prof. Margo Bagley new article on First-to-Invent published in the Berkeley Technology Law Journal. Her conclusions: “The US First-to-Invent system may be unique in the world but it offers significant benefits to small entity entrepreneurs and others.” Bagley sees these benefits as primarily coming through the “robust grace period.” When should FITF be adopted? “Only when such a move will provide a clear advantage for small entities by facilitating the adoption of a one-year grace period outside of the US.” See The Need for Speed (and Grace).
  • Bagley’s short article is well received. My one quibble is that she perpetuates the idea that a desire to end interferences is a major motivation in the debate. She says “Eliminating interferences and the uncertainty associated with them appears to be a prime motivation for the FITF legislation.” Lets be clear, in the US, proponents of the first to file legislation want to make it easier to invalidate patents by creating more prior art.

Patently-O Bits and Bytes No. 109

Bits and Bytes, Patent,
  • Quote of the week: “Am I starting to grow nostalgic for Jon Dudas? At least he hated all applicants, big and small. Jon, Jon, Jon – should I have not doubted your wisdom?” Greg Aharonian, on contemplating the potential that Dave Kappos (IBM) will be the next PTO director.
  • My Discussion of Kappos: Here.
  • Section 2 of the Sherman Act: The Truth on the Market Blog is hosting a series of interesting articles on reforms of Section 2 (unilateral monopolization). Expect a post from IP/Antitrust leader Hovenkamp on Tuesday or Wednesday. [Link].